Question about so called “Worldly tools” that are hurting the Church? Choices

[D28guy]

Friend of Spurgeon,

"So what about our reggae concert at church tomorrow? I guess that's out for some of you. However, all are welcome."

Good grief......I wish I could come!!! :BangHead:

Can someone at your church maybe record it and put some of it up on Godtube...or maybe make CD's available?

God bless,

Mike

 

[TaliOrlando]

you say same thing with music... and i agree. Can't you see? The music... not the lyrics that is not godly. And to take that type of music that the world sings their songs to and somehow think one is pleasing God by changing the lyrics is trying to serve two masters. Eating at the table of the Lord while drinking of the cup of the world.

And you think God is pleased with compromise?

You have a good point on this one, but what music do you listen to?

 

[trustitl]

Unless its christian rock and roll, christian country, christian rap, and christian reggae, etc...

In that case it doesnt feed their flesh, but their spirit.

They are blessed, strenghthened and edified.

Mike

This is what most people think about music. If we put the right words to music it is now worship. I am not saying that you cannot worship while singing to music such as country or reggae, but I am saying that it does not becomes worship once we put the right words in.

I think SFIC is concerned that people take the music that they like and put 'christian" words to it and call it worship when in reality they are just feeding their flesh (SFIC's words). I would also say that singing hymns with an organ or piano can feed the flesh just like newer forms of music can. There is something in us that wants to do "religious" activities such as singing. It makes us feel good to be doing "christian" things.

If you are unable to get together with other people and sing "their" music and worship God it is an indicator of your immaturity. This goes for young and old alike. I have finally realized this about myself after 20 years of being a believer.

I think God is grieved to see churches splitting and having a contemporary service and a traditional service. I am afraid churches that do this are failing to see that they are carnal rather than spiritual.

Is Christ divided? Ye say I am tradtional or I am contemporary.

Wherefore, if music make my brother to offend, I will not listen to my music while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the music?

 

[trustitl]

Friend of Spurgeon,



Good grief......I wish I could come!!! :BangHead:

Can someone at your church maybe record it and put some of it up on Godtube...or maybe make CD's available?

God bless,

Mike

Would you have the same desire to get together with a group which worships God by singing hymns acapella?

You confirm SFIC's concerns by indicating that you would drive hours for one type of music and not to get together with believers of another brand.

 

[rbell]

By SFIC's logic, it is not possible to have a Christian artist paint a painting that glofiries God....because they use a "worldly tool" (canvas, brush, etc.), or the "medium" is sinful (i.e., evil people have used oil paintings; thus, painting w/oils is evil.)

When you put in in black and white, it does make one go, "hmmmm........."

 

[windcatcher]

By SFIC's logic, it is not possible to have a Christian artist paint a painting that glofiries God....because they use a "worldly tool" (canvas, brush, etc.), or the "medium" is sinful (i.e., evil people have used oil paintings; thus, painting w/oils is evil.)

When you put in in black and white, it does make one go, "hmmmm........."

I think some are too hard and too judgemental on SFIC for his statements.

Like the 'computer' question.

"Tools' are generally inert: Tools are carpet and cushions, pulpits and pews, black boards and erasers, projection screens and projectors, computers and type writers and telephones and cars, and pianos and guitars, and percussions, and horns etc., and hymn books, and pens, and paper, and garments, and tableware, and recorders, and accoustical equipment, tables chairs and glassware, transmission and receiving equipment.

Tools are like gloves... they have a function.... 'Gloves' you say? ..Yes gloves! Gloves have a function, to cover and protect. Gloves worn to prevent transfer of infection between two persons as used in medical care..... a good use.... Gloves used to protect the thief from leaving finger prints behind..... a bad use. All things we used are 'carnal' but not necessary for the Christian to deny putting it to good use. A gun to protect one's family or one's neighbor from mortal danger... a just use..... a gun to shoot someone who disagrees with you or calls you a nasty name or just plain 'makes' you angry..... an unjust use and murder.

Tools are just that....inert until used... and even then, they are 'carnal' the opposite of spiritual. They may be used to express something 'spiritual' but tools are not spiritual. How they are used protrays the spiritual condition and expression of the one or ones using them.....not the tools themselves.

Our feelings are carnal and mercurial.... our spirit if in tune with God... is stable: One is a reflection of the input we absorb in the experience of our world right now and how we 'internalize' it based upon our previous experience. Our spirit is dependant upon those deep things which we believe in such confidence that it is steadfast, even when everything we read, see, hear and experience in the flesh of our feelings would have us think otherwise. Thinking is a process of both the spirit and the flesh. When we let God be in control, our spirit is stable, and we bring our 'feelings' and thoughts of doubt, insecurity, fear, lust, etc. into control and balance from our spirit. When our flesh/feelings are in control, our works and our motives are centered in the 'carnal' or the flesh and not in the spirit.... hence a 'good' work may be done, but without it coming from the Spirit, it is still an act of the flesh.

Question: Music is not 'tools': It is sounds and rhythm which conveys something. 'Music' is not even poetry or words which are put to sounds and rhythms. Music expresses something from the producer to the ones who hear and receive. What is it the music conveys to the listener? Is it harmonious or dissonant? Does it lift or sadden? Does it transform or create a trance, or so exciting that it makes one want to move? If one hearing it were totally uninhibited from physically and or mentally expressing that music in some action...what would that expression look like and communicate back?

If it draws one to worship then well.....but if it draws one to other non-worshipful expressions.... then perhaps its 'okay' with fleshly pleasures but not a part of worship. Another thing, when I attend church, its with pleasure to assemble with others so like minded to join in the expression of worship. If I want to go to a concert or a football game, etc., for entertainment....then that's where I'll go, but I know not to call that 'worship'. I understand some concerts may incorporate some worship in them and some church services may present some 'entertainment' in them.... but each has its primary purpose and church should not stray far from worship and edification and instruction and proclaiming the Gospel.

 

[D28guy]

trustitl,

I said...

Good grief......I wish I could come!!!
"Can someone at your church maybe record it and put some of it up on Godtube...or maybe make CD's available?

And you responded...

"Would you have the same desire to get together with a group which worships God by singing hymns acapella?"

I've visited churchs who sing accapella several times. I join in whole heartedly with whatever worship music is being used at a church. (Except rap, but I've never been in a service where rap was being used. Rap literally gives me a headache, so I would go out in the parking lot with the cigarette smokers until it ended. I'm not AGAINST rap music in church, I just cant be there while its going on.)

You confirm SFIC's concerns by indicating that you would drive hours for one type of music and not to get together with believers of another brand."

When I said "I wish I could come" I meant I wished I lived in that city so I could come. I love reggae and would love to here reggae worship music. I would not drive from Kentucky to Florida to hear it. As I said earlier, I join in joyfully with whatever music is being used in a church.

God bless,

Mike

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

StandingFirm,



Unless its christian rock and roll, christian country, christian rap, and christian reggae, etc...

In that case it doesnt feed their flesh, but their spirit.

They are blessed, strenghthened and edified.

God bless,

Mike

I love all types of music -- pop, rock, country, reggae, etc. (even classical --- ok not rap) -- and it doesn't have to be "Christian" to feed the soul & to touch the heart. I can't think of how the music I listen to (in any of the above categories) "feeds the flesh" as he says.

Tonight our church is hosting a free reggae & calypso concert for the community. I seriously doubt that we'll be feeding the flesh.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

trustitl, you asked D28 guy

Would you have the same desire to get together with a group which worships God by singing hymns acapella?

You confirm SFIC's concerns by indicating that you would drive hours for one type of music and not to get together with believers of another brand.

OK, your right. Speaking for myself, I would put a lot more effort going to one event over another. That does not mean the other is bad, just that I enjoy one more than the other.

There are some preachers I really like. I will drive a long way to hear them preach at a revival. There are other preachers I would not drive across town to hear. I don't think they are evil or anything, I just don't like them as much. What's wrong with that?

I reject the entire premise of WORLDLY TOOLS. There are only tools. They can be used to promote Christ or to promote the world. The same internet can be used to promote Christ or immorality. The same printing press can print Bibles or pornography. The same gun that can protect my family could be used to hurt someone else.

I would say that music styles are the same way. There are some I like, there are some I don't like, but all can be used to promote Christ or to promote the world. I fail to see how one style of music can feed the flesh. The heart of music is not in the tempo or the notes, it is in the lyrics. There is no compromise if the lyrics are right. Some styles I don't like might distract me from the message, but others may not be.

Music, all music is a gift of God. It is how we use that music that defines it as worldly or godly.

 

[just-want-peace]

Well stated NCT.

"Preference" does not doctrine make!

A humongeous part of the problem, IMNSHO, is that Christians (sometimes) condemn "NEW" before even understanding it (what ever "IT" may be) and then the world embraces "IT" so from then on "IT" is evil and from the devil.

I think movies are a good example. Many folks refused to attend a movie when I was young because "SOME" movies were bad. Christians shied away fromany associations with same, but the potential for evangelistic use were tremendous but since movies were evil, there was no attempt to use them for good.

Course things have changed somewhat since then, but many opportunities were wasted simply to ignorance.

Hopefully we are not as narrow minded as then.

Tools are tools - the use is either good or evil!

 

[annsni]

SFIC - I have an honest question for you. I was thinking of this today and wanted to ask you. Is there ANYTHING that you feel is not what you want to do in church or whatever but isn't "evil" and of satan? You know, something you say "It's not my style but there's nothing wrong with it."? It seems like either you feel something is right or something is wrong with just about everything - but I've never seen you say "Eh - doesn't matter to me but it's not my thing."

Personally, I'm not into hymnals - I prefer to look up when I sing. I'm certainly no professional singer but I've found that I sing more confidently and clearly when I'm singing ahead of me rather than down into a book. But I'm never going to say that a hymnal is bad and a projector is good. It's just a preference. Or the seats in church....Our church has seats rather than pews. It allows for more versatility to the largest room in the church and it can be set up into many configurations from seating as many people as possible for church or breaking it down to a smaller, more intimate setting for a wedding. Or even setting it up into small groups for classes, setting out tables for a large potluck or taking all the seats out so we can fix the huge leak that happened because the new sprinkler system was not capped properly (thanks to the sprinkler system company).

So, is there anything you say "eh" about? Or do you have a definite "this is of God" or "this is of satan" thinking on everything with the church?

I'm asking this question again since it wasn't answered the first time.

 

[windcatcher]

Two things I will say:

Music which depends upon the words to give it spiritual or worshipful meaning, should not over power the words so that the message get through.

Music which depends upon the words to give it spiritual or worshipful meaning, should not be used during those times of the service when the words are not included and the music is indistinguishable from that of the world without the words.

 

[trustitl]

There are some preachers I really like. I will drive a long way to hear them preach at a revival. There are other preachers I would not drive across town to hear. I don't think they are evil or anything, I just don't like them as much. What's wrong with that?

It might be wrong if you only go with "itching ears" to hear what you like. Chances are many of us would not have driven across town to hear Paul since he supposedly wasn't much of a preacher.

I reject the entire premise of WORLDLY TOOLS. There are only tools. They can be used to promote Christ or to promote the world. The same internet can be used to promote Christ or immorality. The same printing press can print Bibles or pornography. The same gun that can protect my family could be used to hurt someone else.

Agreed. Worldliness is referring to intangibles as much as Godliness is. Godliness is an issue of the heart and our orientation toward God not a bunch of activities that we participate in. The dangerous thing here is that we can easily deceive ourselves into thinking we are doing things for God when in reality it is our own carnal mind and fleshly desires. I know I have.

I would say that music styles are the same way. There are some I like, there are some I don't like, but all can be used to promote Christ or to promote the world. I fail to see how one style of music can feed the flesh. The heart of music is not in the tempo or the notes, it is in the lyrics. There is no compromise if the lyrics are right. Some styles I don't like might distract me from the message, but others may not be.

I emboldened the part I would like to address. I never said one style of music is worldy and feeds the flesh. I say all styles of music can be used to feed the flesh: from high brow pipe organs to rap. The Pharisees were the most worldly people Christ had to deal with yet they were very "conservative" and religious.

Music, all music is a gift of God. It is how we use that music that defines it as worldly or godly.

Here again I agree, yet we need to be careful that we are not doing things "our" way because we like it. When the vehicle becomes divisive and the message is secondary we are on dangerous ground. The body of Christ is not divided yet we too often are because of things like music, clothes, modes of education, etc. This is not a result of Godliness and shows how carnal we too often are. We don't say I am of Paul or of Apollos, but we do divide over music music and other things. The worldliness in not in the things we choose, it is in us.

Here is worldliness: "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Well said Trustitl and important warning to heed.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Friend of Spurgeon,



Good grief......I wish I could come!!! :BangHead:

Can someone at your church maybe record it and put some of it up on Godtube...or maybe make CD's available?

God bless,

Mike

Thanks Mike, but sorry mon - no cd's. It was a lot of fun - no worries, just families being together -- spread out on blankets, eating burgers and listening to music. As you may know, there are a lot of Jamaicans who live down here (Ziggy Marley - Bob's son - lives down street) and we have many Jamaicans in our church (including our Pastor).

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Two things I will say:

Music which depends upon the words to give it spiritual or worshipful meaning, should not over power the words so that the message get through.

Music which depends upon the words to give it spiritual or worshipful meaning, should not be used during those times of the service when the words are not included and the music is indistinguishable from that of the world without the words.

Windcatcher (or anyone else),

Is there music which has spiritual or worshipful meaning independent of the lyrics? My opinion would be no. There are of course songs and hymns that played as instrumentals still have spiritual meaning to me, but that is because I know the lyrics.

Without the words how could you distinguish between the two?

 

[windcatcher]

Windcatcher (or anyone else),

Is there music which has spiritual or worshipful meaning independent of the lyrics? My opinion would be no. There are of course songs and hymns that played as instrumentals still have spiritual meaning to me, but that is because I know the lyrics.

Without the words how could you distinguish between the two?

The 'spirituality' contained in music has to do with the feelings, sadness or joy, thoughts, contemplation, prayer, listening, calm, or excitability it invokes in a person. In and of itself, music conveys no message but it does envoke a response within a person and is a strongly individualistic thing.

However, we use music in our worship: It accompanies words we sing. It is played during quiet moments such as marches or offerings or moments of otherwise 'silence' in the service. To what extent it was used in the early New Testament church, I don't know. I have a feeling we rely more on music for the listening pleasure than those of the early church: I have a feeling that the early church possibly put scriptural teachings and writings into song, as a memory aid, more than we do today. I don't think a truely adequate answer to this question of music has an answer unless it is by someone who has intensely studied the character of the early church, and the origins of the customs which we accept today.

But, I do know God has order, and he requires that we have order under his authority, if we are to please him. The purpose of worship is to glorify our LORD. In keeping with order, music should have certain sounds and flow of movement. If notes are accompanied by other notes, it should have harmony; even counterpoint has associated harmonious agreement. If instruments are used, their purpose is to compliment the words which are sung, or to present the melody conforming to the mood of the worship service. It is not orderly when the music consists of a band and its mode of delivery is such that it sounds like a competition for the loudest noise... and only those already familiar with the music can discern the melody.

Nothing distracts me more than be listening to preaching and have someone in the background give instrumental punctuations to the points of the message as it is being delivered.

As stupid as I may seem, I still stand by my position that if music doesn't compliment the worship which takes place, when the words are not being sung to give meaning....then it doesn't belong. True, music which is often sung, gives rise to those words within the person who knows both.. But I've heard 'new age' music which sound just as worshipful as any hymns I'm familiar with, which could be played during such quiet reflective moments of the service. I would not know the difference: But, once I heard the words and realized the message it reminds those who have broken free of that power, I might question 'does this please God and really invoke his presence, or does it return people's thoughts to the mire which God pulled them from?' In otherwords, does the music represent not only our worship but also our knowledge of our awesome God, or is it just supposed to reflect us and our listening pleasure?

I can turn on the radio or go to a concert any day.... But going to church is an event to unite with other Christians in the worship of God. It is for my benefit, but it is also for His pleasure. Should I offer to him that which to me is common?