Question about the Kingdom

[J.D.]

1. Satan will be bound; he is not currently bound.

True, if you accept a linear progression in Revelation. I believe Revelation is reiterative.

2. Amil could venture bound (prohibited) from executing his destructive will on the Church, but Satan is not bound and he continues to execute his destructive will on the church right now.

He executes his destructive will, but not outside of the limits that God has set.

3. How do we account for cruelty and persecutions against the church over the years?

"...we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

"For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know"

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,"

"Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"

"And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. "

"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. "

4. Plus, the text says Satan is bound so that he would not deceive the nations, not the church.

One might understand "nations" as a parallel to "Gentiles", representing the opening of faith to the Gentiles during this age of the new covenant.

 

[David Lamb]

I see no reason not to*. I will assume you are not suggesting that I have not thought about it.

*(that is, believe that believe that Satan will be bodily bound by a literal chain in a literal bottomless pit.)

Would that not necessitate Satan being a physical being?

 

[TCGreek]

True, if you accept a linear progression in Revelation. I believe Revelation is reiterative.

1. So would Satan be loosed for a season before the GWTJ? Or is that reiterative too?

He executes his destructive will, but not outside of the limits that God has set.

2. That has always been the case, but why now in Revelation we find Satan bound for 1000 yrs? According to your view, this should begin at Genesis, but Why it isn't, but only after the Cross of Christ?

We might understand "nations" as a parallel to "Gentiles", representing the opening of faith to the Gentiles during this age of the new covenant.

3. But the reference to Satan is about rally these nations for war, not an opening of faith to the Gentiles. I would think it would be Christ rally the nations to believe, but that is not the case.

4. Rev 20:7 is not about evangelism; besides, if your view is upheld, it really doesn't make any sense at all.

5. Is the Gospel only being preached to the Jews and then someday, when Satan is partially released, then he would take the gospel to the Gentiles? How do you get that from Rev 20:7?

 

[TCGreek]

*(that is, believe that believe that Satan will be bodily bound by a literal chain in a literal bottomless pit.)

Would that not necessitate Satan being a physical being?

1. Quite an interesting view, since Peter says, "For if God didn't spare the angels who sinned, but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment" (2 Pet 2:4; Jude 6). These are spirit beings, right?

2. One does not have to venture such a view to believing in the binding of Satan.

 

[David Lamb]

1. Quite an interesting view, since Peter says, "For if God didn't spare the angels who sinned, but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment" (2 Pet 2:4; Jude 6). These are spirit beings, right?

2. One does not have to venture such a view to believing in the binding of Satan.

I agree. However, J.D. had asked "2 Timothy 2.1-4":

Do you believe that Satan will be bodily bound by a literal chain in a literal bottomless pit?

​

"2 Timothy 2.1-4" replied:

I see no reason not to.

​

I was replying with what I see as a reason not to take the chains literally, not saying that the chains don't exist. The verse you quoted from 2 Peter 2 calls them "chains of darkness"

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Let me clarify my statement. I see no reason to believe that the pit is not a literal place even in light of Luke 8:31

 

[TCGreek]

I agree. However, J.D. had asked "2 Timothy 2.1-4":

Do you believe that Satan will be bodily bound by a literal chain in a literal bottomless pit?

​

"2 Timothy 2.1-4" replied:

I see no reason not to.

​

I was replying with what I see as a reason not to take the chains literally, not saying that the chains don't exist. The verse you quoted from 2 Peter 2 calls them "chains of darkness"

I'm essentially in agreement with you.

 

[TCGreek]

Let me clarify my statement. I see no reason to believe that the pit is not a literal place even in light of Luke 8:31

While I agree that they would have gone to the Abyss, they were going as spirit beings and God has a way of even binding such beings.

 

[webdog]

1. Quite an interesting view, since Peter says, "For if God didn't spare the angels who sinned, but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment" (2 Pet 2:4; Jude 6). These are spirit beings, right?

2. One does not have to venture such a view to believing in the binding of Satan.

Can't angels be both spirit / physical as we are? We know they walk the earth in bodily form and we entertain them unawares. I seem to think there is another physical realm that we are not privy to.

 

[TCGreek]

1. But their normal state is that of spirit beings (Heb 1:14).

2. They have only taken on physical when the mission from God involved such, so if the mission doesn't involve taking on physical form, then I assume the spirit form is under consideration.

 

[webdog]

1. Is that there "normal state" to humans or in existence in general?

2. Could it also be they are in physical form as well as spiritual form, and when God so allows, for us to view them in their physical form?

 

[TCGreek]

1. Is that there "normal state" to humans or in existence in general?

1. From all account, spirit form would be their normal form.

2. Could it also be they are in physical form as well as spiritual form, and when God so allows, for us to view them in their physical form?

2. Yes, physical form when the Lord so desires as in the OT and NT, but remember the fallen, demonic angels in the NT, who possessed people, are spirit beings.

 

[Allan]

I'll just make a quick comment regarding 'chains of darkness' in which some demons are and will be bound.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

If you will notice both of these are almost identical in their wording regarding some demons are being 'reservered' by 'God' in 'chains' until the 'Judgment'.

The chains being mentioned MUST be spiritual in nature in order to bind them (as in prison) until their judgment comes in that Great day.

Are they physical chains? of course not, else how could they be bound by them?
And it is by these 'chains' scripture declares they are bound. Why? I have no Idea because I have never been in their relm nor do I know and understand how all things operate there in. So I take God at His word that when He declares He has bound them in chains that is precisely what He has chosen to do.

Chains of darkness is not describing what the chains are made of (like steel or brass) but specifying 'where' it is. You will note this in the Jude passage I also quoted. The demons are chained 'under' darkness, just as the previous passage quoted says chains 'of' darkness. It is a discriptor not of it's make but it's location, much like the phrase 'being cast into outer darkness' which is distict from the normal physical darkness that we comprehend. It is a spiritual darkness which is seperated from God, where the rebellious are kept until Judgment, so it should be understood the same with demons but that they are kept UNDER the darkness being chained till their time comes.

At least that is how I see the scripture portraying it.

EDITTED IN -->> And let us not forget the 'great chain' by which Satan shall be bound either.

Rev 20:1 ¶ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

This shows again a chain used in binding but this one is called a 'great chain' by which Satan is bound by another angel.

On a side note, this passage also gives credence to a literal 1000 years in linear time since it states of Satan's binding will be for "a thousand years" than no one be decieved by him again "till the thousand years should be fulfilled" and not some etremely long period of time.

But hey, that's my nickles worth

 

[skypair]

I don't want to put words in your mouth but I think you mean that free will and unbelief can exist in a nearly perfect world.

And I'm guessing that what you are trying to say is that the MK is near perfect, and the EK is perfect. Yes?

Yes, sir. MK is like Adam's kingdom. But that was not God's kingdom because the fallen angels were fallen into it. Do you see it? Everything was the KoG until the angels fell and then earth was the "outpost" of sin and death. Then earth became the "battle ground" for good and evil! That will continue until the last enemy, death, is defeated, post MK. That's when Satan is released and finally defeated in Rev 20. Do you see it?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Passage of scripture please.

2Tim -- Read Rev 20. Where do all those rebels come from? Read Mt 5-7 -- the "law" of the MK. Do you think maybe hypocrites become rebels? Free will is in full bloom what with people CHOSING to pretend good and have an evil heart.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Do you not believe that unbelief is sinful? How can a world with unbelief be "perfect"?

Unbelief is sin -- especially when faith is sight! And no, the MK is NOT perfect. Sin and death still exist. Just like that possibility was present for Adam. Until the New Earth this earth will be a spiritual battle ground. Wouldn't you agree?

skypair

 

[skypair]

You may mean in the presence of a perfect ruler who rules with a rod of iron, there is sin.. It is not a perfect world.

Yes, that is exactly what I mean. Read 1Cor 15:25-28 -- He must reign until ALL enemies are put under His feet -- the last enemy is death -- then shall the Son also be subject to Him that put all things under Him. That is -- the MK ends, the New Earth and Heaven come, GOD's kingdom!

skypair

 

[skypair]

Obviously it's not a perfect world, and I don't think it has anything to do with free will. HOWEVER, I do think that for once in a blue moon, sp is onto something. This is pure speculation, not scripture, but I also wonder if one of the purposes of the MK (other than to fulfill the promise), is to demonstrate to man how depraved man really is. Imagine a world where there can be no doubt about who Jesus is. He's right there, for all to see. Creation is blessed, too. And satan is bound for almost the whole time.

Yet when satan is loosed, he doesn't seem to have much trouble rounding up a rebellion. Why is that?

Looks like YOU are on to something. I can't imagine the days when Christ actually rules with a "rod of iron" and yet, in the end, there are rebels! But can you see the hypocrisy? Everyone pretending to "obey" Mt 5-7 only to be against the Lord of Lord? Wow!

skypair

 

[skypair]

*(that is, believe that believe that Satan will be bodily bound by a literal chain in a literal bottomless pit.)

Would that not necessitate Satan being a physical being?

Interestingly, no. Think about this ---- demons that possessed humans were "bound" in chains until the "last judgment," Jude 1:6 -- until the tribulation. They are released in the 5th trumpet.

Now suppose that Satan possessed AC. Where would he go? Wouldn't he be "chained" in the pit like those other demons? Wouldn't he be released at some point? Sure! In order to put him in his place -- the lake of fire!

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

I'll just make a quick comment regarding 'chains of darkness' in which some demons are and will be bound.


If you will notice both of these are almost identical in their wording regarding some demons are being 'reservered' by 'God' in 'chains' until the 'Judgment'.

The chains being mentioned MUST be spiritual in nature in order to bind them (as in prison) until their judgment comes in that Great day.

Are they physical chains? of course not, else how could they be bound by them?
And it is by these 'chains' scripture declares they are bound. Why? I have no Idea because I have never been in their relm nor do I know and understand how all things operate there in. So I take God at His word that when He declares He has bound them in chains that is precisely what He has chosen to do.

Chains of darkness is not describing what the chains are made of (like steel or brass) but specifying 'where' it is. You will note this in the Jude passage I also quoted. The demons are chained 'under' darkness, just as the previous passage quoted says chains 'of' darkness. It is a discriptor not of it's make but it's location, much like the phrase 'being cast into outer darkness' which is distict from the normal physical darkness that we comprehend. It is a spiritual darkness which is seperated from God, where the rebellious are kept until Judgment, so it should be understood the same with demons but that they are kept UNDER the darkness being chained till their time comes.

At least that is how I see the scripture portraying it.

EDITTED IN -->> And let us not forget the 'great chain' by which Satan shall be bound either.

This shows again a chain used in binding but this one is called a 'great chain' by which Satan is bound by another angel.

On a side note, this passage also gives credence to a literal 1000 years in linear time since it states of Satan's binding will be for "a thousand years" than no one be decieved by him again "till the thousand years should be fulfilled" and not some etremely long period of time.

But hey, that's my nickles worth

1. Well, the Amills have to square with that and explain why are nations still being deceived if Satan is bound?

2. And what does it mean that Satan will be loosed for a short time? However, Peter says that Satan is now walking around, seeking someone to devour (1 Pet 5:8).

3. The Amil explanation of the 1000yrs doesn't add-up for me.