Question about the Mormon Jesus

Regarding Santa.....

I was tucking my 6 year old son into bed a few months ago, (not Christmas time) and we discussed Jesus a little, and he said,

"Mum, Jesus AND Santa are watching me.... they are here in this room right NOW!"

I had a frission of alarm.... hmmmm ...... I must correct this thing now, I thought!

I did not wish to take his enjoyment and childhood fairytale view away from him.... so explained that Santa isn't like Jesus at all!

Explained about Jesus a little ... said he is a spirit, and he knows why we love him and so on ....

then explained Santa only comes at Christmas time and he is not a spirit. Just a normal clever secret person who can do magic things!

Well.... if you guys feel you wish to correct my thinking, then go ahead.

BUT .... I adored Santa and the mystery world of it all, when I was a child... and I got it across to my little boy that Jesus and Santa were two entirely different things!!!!!

Cheers

[ April 13, 2003, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Glorious ]

 

DHK, I think Singer was making a comparison, or a parallel in thinking.

He didn't say "father/sonship of humans" .... actually.

I make the suggestion he was making a comparison, not meaning what you think.

He will clarify, I am sure!

 

Mike,

Considering the chances of us resolving a 2000 year old mystery,
it probably isn't within our scope to persist the matter.

However, rest assured I do not address Mormonism.

Gotta go host an afternoon Gospel Jamboree today....during which
much will be said about our faith in Jesus.

(Without going to the extreme of trying to explain just who that is)

 

Thanks Glorious...

I see how that was mistaken, Yes.

"How can you believe that this term relates to the "father/sonship of
humans" if you have been saved and reading your Bible for the last 20
years?

As a comparison.....as a comparison !!

The complexity of God allows Him to have a powerful Son who is very
capable of being our propitiation for sin. We call Him Savior, Lord, Lord
God, Most High or just plain ole Jesus.

Reminds me of prayer itself. It's totally permissible to adress God, Our
Heavenly Father, Lord, Jesus, Holy Spirit etc. when beckoning the creator.

Maybe that alone suggests that they are one. The Holy Spirit is in us
afterall. So that means that Jesus does indwell us. Also means that God
is in us. I don't think there's really any arguement here at all.

 

My original question to you was: When you were saved, some 20 years ago, When you called upon the Son, or the Son of God, what did you mean by the term "Son of God," back then?
You answered: "Father/sonship of humans"
Now what you have clarified in your more recent answer is the deity of Christ, that Christ is God, the deity of the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit is God, and a belief in the trinity. Previously you said that for twenty years you didn't understand these issues.

So that means that Jesus does indwell us. Also means that God

If this has been your belief all along, then hasn't this whole discussion been rather moot?
DHK

 

Singer,

If you believe that the kingdom of heaven is within us, there is an aweful lot of scripture that you must have trouble with.

 

(Tuor)
If you believe that the kingdom of heaven is within us, there is an aweful lot of scripture that you must have trouble with.

(Singer)

Sorry, that's "kingdom of God " .
Luke 17:21
... nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the
kingdom of God is within[ 17:21 Or among] you."

That's probably a whole new topic.

 

As would discerning who actually have the Holy Spirit and who are just kidding themselves.

 

Tuor:

Surely not to mean that someone who has accepted Jesus Christ
as his saviour is kidding himself just because he didn't quote that
Jesus Christ is God; and the result being a false sense of salvation
seasoned with a false indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

No, I am talking about those who "fall away". Jesus said they exist.

 

(DHK)

My original question to you was: When you were saved, some 20 years
ago, When you called upon the Son, or the Son of God, what did you mean
by the term "Son of God," back then?

You answered: "Father/sonship of humans"

Now what you have clarified in your more recent answer is the deity of
Christ, that Christ is God, the deity of the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit
is God, and a belief in the trinity. Previously you said that for twenty years
you didn't understand these issues.

So that means that Jesus does indwell us. Also means that God

If this has been your belief all along, then hasn't this whole discussion
been rather moot?
DHK

(Singer)

The "Religion of Envy" thread is hinging on this same topic.

As Glorious asked, as a comparison, I refer to the father/sonship of humans
meaning the frame of mind a person is quite possibly in at the time of
"accepting the Lord". It would be fun to survey everyone who has accepted
the Lord to see just what their thoughts were at the time. For me, it was
more in line with my perception being that of looking upon Jesus as God's Son.
(Like He ALSO referred to Himself as.

It did not seem to hinder my receiving the Holy Spirit as evidence that has
been produced in me. I do not say this out of pride, but out of gratification for
the spirit he has given me. When Christ stands at our door and knocks and
we let him in, it is not up to us to determine who He brings with Him. We know
we've let Jesus in and if he is also God, then they're both there.

To be biblically correct , we'd have to say that the Holy Spirit also answered
the knock on the door that day, but there may not be a verse to support that;
the same as there may not be a verse to back up the claim that a person has
to understand and stipulate that we are actually inviting Jesus the Creator of
the world into our hearts. In effect we are, but do we have to KNOW that ?

Ther terms are used synonymously.

As a result of indepth discussion (arguing....? ..) with Catholics on these
boards, I've been informed that the term "accepting the Lord" does not even
enter in to their approach of God. It was told to me that the rightful method is
that we are "saved by grace through faith AND the perserverance of good works"
if you can believe that.

So..........let's not distort the gospel so as to make it complex and further
prevent honest seekers from pursuing salvation with our indepth attempts
to resolve the mysteries that will only still remain mysteries !

 

Here you have answered my basic question. In 20 years of reading your Bible you have equated the two terms of "Son of God," and "Son of Man," as being synonymous? I find that as almost incomprehensible. The entire gospel of Luke presents Christ as the perfect Son of man showing Christ as a perfect man. The entire gospel of John presents Christ as the Son of God demonstrating his deity. One shows his humanity; the other his deity. It is hard to miss this after some years of Bible study. I would think that it would be difficult to equate these two terms for such a long period of time. Wouldn't you?
DHK

 

DHK,

I don't think so. I have always seen those two titles as just that, titles. They have always meant Jesus Christ to me.

 

DHK,

You lost me.
You argue that Jesus and God are the same being, yet you disapprove
of me saying that they are now ? Incomprehensible you say ?

You brought the terms Son of Man and Son of God into the discussion...not me.
I'm equating the terms Jesus and God as the same and therefore it would
be impossible to pray to the wrong one or even to one and not the other
by mere words.

Synonymous and equate both mean "Same". So when a person says he
believes in Jesus Christ, how could he be serving a different Jesus ...?

We should leave the deliberations concerning the meaning of IS
to the lawyers.

Singer

 

I never said they meant anything or anyone different than Jesus Christ. I said they emphasize a different aspect of who he is. He is totally God and totally man at the same time. These terms define who he is. Why does Luke use one term and John use the other?
DHK

 

I was gonna pray about this matter, but now I'm aware that
Santa Claus might intercept my prayers

 

Singer,
You originally stated that the fact that Jesus is God was never an issue with you when you got saved. Though you believe it now, you didn't believe it when you got saved.

I don't believe a person can be saved without realizing that Jesus is God. If they don't know that Jesus is God, how do they know they have the right Jesus. Maybe you called on the Mormon Jesus--a created being of a sexual union between a god and a goddess. Maybe you called on 3AM's version of Jesus, who is another Jesus because He is not the Most High God, but a lesser god. Maybe you called on the J.W. Jesus, Michael the Archangel. Maybe you called on the Muslim Jesus, just another prophet. Maybe you called on the Hindu Jesus, one of many gods.
Just what Jesus did you call on if He was not God?
DHK

 

Dear DHK,

When I accepted Christ .... the changeover from ME running my own life, to HIM running my life ..... I honestly, truly, genuinely didn't know all this stuff.

This is exactly how I saw it back then:

GOD was the one I had in my mind and heart. Everything I thought and did, and when I prayed, it was to GOD.
I knew about Jesus .... and to me he was divine like God, and I saw him as Gods son .... and my "elder brother".

But to be truly honest, I didn't think about all this stuff in debate here ..... it was so very simple to me .... I gave my life to God. That was that! End of story! (Or should I say ... BEGINNING of story!! )

DHK, IF in fact I had read all this before giving my life to God .... I would have been so confused, I am scared to think what it might have done to my decision.

NOW, years later.... I have enjoyed thinking more and more of all these things.

When a babe is born .... it knows nothing. Bet it doesn't know its mother from its father! Just knows a feeling of safety and satisfaction when it is being held and fed.

As time goes on, it grows and matures.

Glorious!
who thanks God for seeing Him in simplicity

 

Glorious,
Soon after I was saved I was invited to a Bible study. When they asked me to turn to John 3:16, I didn't know where John was, I didn't know what the three meant and I didn't know what the 16 meant. I was totally Biblically illiterate. But I did know and understand that I was saved. It is the message of the gospel that saves. Here it is explained in 1Cor.15:

15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Paul says, I declare unto you the gospel...by which also ye are saved.
He then tells what the gospel is:
"How that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that he buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures."

This is the gospel, "by the which ye are saved."
It is "according to the scriptures."
The Christ that you believe in, thus, must also be according to the Scriptures. That means that He must be God, for only God could have risen from the dead. Look at all the religious leaders of history. Have any of them risen from the dead? Only the tomb of Christ remains empty. All the others are reverenced by their followers, because the bones of their leaders lie in those tombs. Jesus lives.
DHK