Question about the Spirit and Tongues

[standingfirminChrist]

Here is where the confusion comes in (that I have repeated many times).
God still heals. No one disputes that. Today he heals in answer to prayer.
But no one today has the "gift of healing," as it was manifested in the first century. You can see such a demonstration of it in Acts 5:16.

Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

This does not happen today. If it did there would not only be some evidence of, but plenty of evidence of it. It would not be done in a corner, but exercised as a common gift in most churches. But it is not. In fact it doesn't happen in any church, anywhere in all the world. The gift of healing has ceased, as have all the other gifts.
That is not to say that God doesn't answer prayer. He does.

BINGO!!!!!

The healings are there. But there is no need for the gifts, for we are told to call on the elders of the church. We are told to boldly go before the throne ourselves. No need to call on some prophet crying in the wilderness.

Great post, DHK!

 

[grahame]

Jesus certainly did and Peter, folks would get healed just coming into this shadow… Now their’s faith.

Just a question, what is your thoughts on this verse passage of scripture;

Jn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

I don't deny those words and I believe them. What I meant was that they didn't go around as some do today to put on special crusades for healing. Their healing took place spontaneously. These days and I've been to many so called "healing crusades" and some of them are positively comical, and at their worst, tragic, especially to those who go there with great expectation to be healed.

It is also worth pointing out that the apostles never failed to heal anyone. But I have seen people in tears and literally devastated to find that they were not healed. Some have even turned away from the Lord. When questioning the reason why they were not healed they were told that they "didn't have enough faith". What a travesty of the gospel. What a blasphemy against Christ.

What is more, Now I'm not suggesting that the woman who threw away her oxygen mask and zimmer frame was this. But I have seen those who have been planted in the audience, complete with doctors letters (what they were doing with doctors letters at that specific time I don't know) to "prove" that they were healed, only to walk out of the meeting unaided. But they had in fact been planted there by the "healer" just instill faith in others there.

I knew a blind man who went many times to these so called "healing crusades", (he was my friend and I used to read to him in the evenings) only to meet with failure each time. I will always remember what he said, "I think the Lord wants me to heal myself. I just don't have enough faith at the moment". But inside I could see that he was bitterly didappointed. I remember another. A young boy who was literaly being destroyed by epilepsy because of his constant fits. Agai I knew him personally. Alas another failure who was just passed by. These failures by the way just fade away from public gaze and the "healer" loses interest in them, because they are "bad publicity". I point out again, the apostles never failed any who they laid hand on. These so called "healers" today do and they do not see it as "their" failure, but heap the blame on those who are sick and that to my mind is very cruel and is damaging to the true gospel of Jesus Christ. It becomes bad news in the hands of these imposters. In fact I'll go as far to say that these people are nothing short of false prophets.

 

[grahame]

I believe miracles of healing still take place. If miracles of healing were not still in effect, I would still be in the wheelchair God so miraculously brought me out of.

I think the problem is the many false witnesses that fake healings in crusades and such. They have caused many to doubt the hand of God working in the lives of men.

And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. (Matthew 13:58)

I had a friend who was healed. He attributed it to the Lord. All I can say is that, I am a witness to his healing and to human eyes it was miraculous. I had known this man for many years. He was completely eaten up with arthitis. I'm not sure what kind of arthritis they call it. But it is the one where the joints dry out and lose the lubrication I think. He was literally crippled up with it, so much so that he needed a straw to drink with and a special frame to walk with, which he managed with great difficulty.

Anyway, he had moved away with his wife to be nearer to his daughter. One day I heard a knock on the back door. I went to the door only to find this man there, walking, completely unaided and with freedom of movement. I had been doing some work round the back and in order to come to the back door he had to climb over ladders and rubbish and the like. I remember just sitting in my living room totally amazed at his appearance, listening to the account of how he was healed. Turned out that he went to one of these healing meetings.

Now I am with DHK on the matter of spiritual gifts. But I can only tell you what I saw. Also to the fact that this man attributed his healing to that specific point in time. When he went to this healing meeting.

 

[Link]

It is also worth pointing out that the apostles never failed to heal anyone.

If you include delivering people from demons under a broad definition of 'heal', we know that that is not true. There were apostles who failed to cast out a certain demon around the time Jesus was coming down from the Mount of Transfiguration.

We know there are times when apostles put up with illness for whatever reason. The Bible does not tell us if they tried to get God to heal these illnesses or not. Fairly early on in his apostolic ministry, Paul had an eye illness that caused him to be in a situation to minister to the Galatians. Later, Paul left Tromphius sick at Miletus.

But I have seen people in tears and literally devastated to find that they were not healed. Some have even turned away from the Lord. When questioning the reason why they were not healed they were told that they "didn't have enough faith". What a travesty of the gospel. What a blasphemy against Christ.

Honestly, I have never seen anyone respond that way. One aspect of faith that many forget about is that it goes along with patience. Through faith and patience we are to inherit the promise. The woman who kept going to the unjust judge over and over again was a type of faith. (When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?) If someone wants something from God, He should keep on asking, seeking, and knocking, and not turn away from God.

As for accusing the sick of not having faith, I agree that is a problem. One Pentecostal preacher I heard did not care for this attitude either. He pointed out that 'the prayer of faith shall save the sick' is in a passage about elders doing the praying. Why don't these guys who say, "You don't have enough faith" point at themselves and their own lack of faith?

What is more, Now I'm not suggesting that the woman who threw away her oxygen mask and zimmer frame was this. But I have seen those who have been planted in the audience, complete with doctors letters (what they were doing with doctors letters at that specific time I don't know) to "prove" that they were healed, only to walk out of the meeting unaided. But they had in fact been planted there by the "healer" just instill faith in others there.

I know of one TV preacher who was caught with his wife on a radio earpiece feeding him information. Did you see proof that people were planted in audiences claiming to be healed?

I would suspect that critics assume the those who are healed are plants in the audience much more often than is really the case.

 

[Link]

First your post and/or challenge is ridiculous. I have demonstrated many times on this board through Scripture how and why these gifts have ceased. If I do it again; if I give you even more Scriptural evidence, will you believe me? The answer is no. Your mind is made up. You mock the Word of God by the very nature of your post. When you want serious debate I will answer you.

You have never offered a shred of valid evidence for gifts ceasing. Trying to claim that miracles ceased from a passage that mentions tongues and prophecy-- but not miracles-- doesn't even make sense. :tonofbricks:

I, and many others, have demonstrated from logic and scripture repeatedly that your eisegesis of scripture is false. Yet you continue to hold on to and believe your lies.

I do not mock the word of God. You might say I mock your foolish misinterpretation of the word of God. But actually my purpose is not to mock, but to point out the error of your reasoning. If you have complete knowledge that replaces the partial knowledge of prophets and those who recieved supernatural revelation in the first century, then you would know these things I ask of you.

If you challenge people to do miracles, etc, are you mocking the Holy Spirit?

You are the one rejecting what the scriptures say here. The scriptures say,

For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, that which is part shall be done away.

Among Paul's readers were prophets, as we see in chapter 14. What kind of things could prophets prophesy about? The Old Testament is full of short-term and long-term predictions. In the New Testament, a spiritual gift could be imparted through prophecy. Prophets could prophecy what calling God had given someone. A prophet prophesied of a coming drought. He also prophesied that Paul would be bound. If you have complete knowledge, you should be able to tell everyone you know their calling and whether they will be bound some day and go to prison or face other calamnities. You should also be able to tell us every natural disaster that God has decided either to cause or to allow to take place.

You may argue that Paul is only speaking of doctrinal knowledge. This argument does not stand since Paul also speaks of doing away with the impartial nature of prophecy, which is not restricted to doctrinal revelation. But if we look at the issue of doctrinal revelation, do you claim to have complete knowledge, while Paul only had partial knowledge? Do you claim that Paul saw through a mirror dimly, but you face to face? Did Paul know in part, but you know as you are known? And you claim to have this knowledge because Paul and others like him who knew in part, wrote down their knowledge for you to have? So you have complete knowledge?

If you were honest with yourself, you would have to admit that you probably do not have the depth of knowledge of the things of God that Paul had in the first century, and that is why you can still learn from his writings when you read them.

 

[Link]

Jesus said, 'the works that I do' and not 'the works that I do, except the supernatural ones.'

 

[Link]

BINGO!!!!!

The healings are there. But there is no need for the gifts, for we are told to call on the elders of the church. We are told to boldly go before the throne ourselves. No need to call on some prophet crying in the wilderness.

Great post, DHK!

So if that is true, then you have elders without gifts. Their grace to shepherd is gone. They have no grace-gifts to empower them to teach. You are just left with human wisdom with no God in it.

They pray for the sick, but there are no grace-gifts there, just humans praying.

I wish people would look up charism in the dictionary! We are in the age of grace. The gifts are still here!

When James wrote that about calling for the elders of the church during a time when miracles were being done. This practice is not at odds with the gifts.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

There is no more need of prophets in the sense of foretelling of future events not revealed... We have the Word of God to show of future events. For a man to stand up and say such as "thus saith the Lord..." and then to go off into predicting the future is adding to the Word of God.

Now, there is not needed a foretelling, but a forth telling of God's Word. We need preachers who are not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Ones who are bold in the faith and Preach that which the Apostles and our Lord warned of to come. Not only to preach warnings, but to preach love and mercy and grace to help in time of need. Just preach Christ.

 

[TCGreek]

There is no more need of prophets in the sense of foretelling of future events not revealed... We have the Word of God to show of future events. For a man to stand up and say such as "thus saith the Lord..." and then to go off into predicting the future is adding to the Word of God.

Now, there is not needed a foretelling, but a forth telling of God's Word. We need preachers who are not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Ones who are bold in the faith and Preach that which the Apostles and our Lord warned of to come. Not only to preach warnings, but to preach love and mercy and grace to help in time of need. Just preach Christ.

Preach it, my brother!

 

[Link]

There is no more need of prophets in the sense of foretelling of future events not revealed... We have the Word of God to show of future events. For a man to stand up and say such as "thus saith the Lord..." and then to go off into predicting the future is adding to the Word of God.

I can prove to you from the Bible that not all prophetic revelation from God is written in the Bible.

If not all prophetic revelation from God is in the Bible, then it does not stand to reason that receving prophetic revelation from God is adding to the Bible.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

All prophetic Revelation has been given. There is no Scriptural proof that there is any more than that which is recorded in the Word of God already.

 

[grahame]

Jesus said, 'the works that I do' and not 'the works that I do, except the supernatural ones.'

I think the greater works Jesus was referring to was the healing of the soul. The great number of people who were to believe on him and receive everlasting life. For what other work of healing did the apostles do in their ministry that Jesus had not done?

But Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me". And under the preaching of the apostles, through the power of the Holy Spirit literally 1000's of people were drawn to Christ.

Jesus also said, "And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours." I believe that this was what our Lord was referring to.

Of course our God is a God of miracles. He always has been and always will be. But the word also says, "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." Now, whilst this is no proof that all these gifts have ceased. It nevertheless does suggest that they shall have an end. It also puts all things in its rightful place, making love our chief concern.

I've seen people struggling to speak in tongues and being taught to shape their mouths in the right way, or to relax their jaws so that they can let "the spirit" have full control over them. I believe that there are certain gifts that God gives to people. I also believe that the "tongues" were actual languages and not the kind of jibberish we hear today. I believe people have the gift of faith. But I do not believe that there are prophets that can add anything new to the final revelation 0f Jesus Christ. There are given to men gifts of wisdom and gifts of knowledge. No one will deny that preaching is a gift and also believe it or not, is evangelism. There are people who are gifted in special ways in order to further the gospel. So it isn't quite true to say that all these gifts have ceased.

ps: What I meant when I said the apostles never had any failures, I meant during their ministry after the holy Spirit came down upon the church. Of course thay had failures when they were with the Lord. In fact they failed at almost everything. But that was not what I was referring to.

 

[Link]

All prophetic Revelation has been given. There is no Scriptural proof that there is any more than that which is recorded in the Word of God already.

Read the Bible. The Bible refers to plenty of revelation not given in scripture:

- What the prophets prophesied who met King Saul.
- What King Saul said when he prophesied.
- The previous prophecies of Micaiah to king Ahab, referenced in scripture, but not recorded in scripture.
- The prophecies of many of the sons of the prophets with Elijah.
- The prophecies of Jonah before being sent to Ninevah. He was already a prophet.
- The prophecies of Ana the prophetess before she saw Christ.
- All the things that Jesus Christ, the Word of God, did and said that John supposed the world could not contain if they were written down.
- The revelations of the man who went into the third heaven in II Corinthians that were not lawful to be spoken.
- What the thunder clap said that John was not allowed to write down.
- The content of the prophecies of numerous prophets in the Old Testament and early church whose prophecies are not recorded in scripture.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Those are all past prophetic revelations, not ones yet to be revealed. They were given to prophets of that day for the people of that day.

If any of those teachings from that period were to arise, they would not be new revelation.

That being said, I have confidence that the Lord did not include them when His Holy Spirit inspired men to pen the Holy Bible for a reason. Those revelations not written down were not for us.

 

[Link]

Those are all past prophetic revelations, not ones yet to be revealed. They were given to prophets of that day for the people of that day.

If any of those teachings from that period were to arise, they would not be new revelation.

That being said, I have confidence that the Lord did not include them when His Holy Spirit inspired men to pen the Holy Bible for a reason. Those revelations not written down were not for us.

So there were revelations that were given, but not for all mankind, to help certain people in certain situations. I wonder how many donkeys Samuel helped other men find. Perhaps there were kings or prophets, or other preachers of the Gospel who recieved prophetic instructions or encouragement to help them along their journey.

If you argue that if someone receives a prophecy, he is 'adding to the word of God' (by which I assume you mean the Bible) then you should apply the same logic to modern prophecies that applies to ancient prophecies. Not all prophecies belonged in the Bible. Not all modern prophecies belong in the Bible. Receiving a modern prophecy is not adding to the Bible.

In fact, if you are a futurist in your interpretation of Revelation, you have to concede that the gift of prophecy is not done with since the two witnesses will prophesy.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The two prophets in Revelation will not prophesy of events that man has not heard of. They will preach that which has already been revealed in Scripture.

Again, a forthtelling, not a foretelling.

 

[grahame]

The Biblical definition of a prophet seems to be first and foremost, "one who speaks on behalf of God" (Exodus 7:1) "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." Those who prophesied about the future were often called seers. (1 Samuel 9:9) "(Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)"

 

[Link]

The two prophets in Revelation will not prophesy of events that man has not heard of. They will preach that which has already been revealed in Scripture.

Again, a forthtelling, not a foretelling.

Prophecy in the OT was not always foretelling. It was whatever the Lord wanted to say through the prophet. The same is true today.

Peter describes OT prophecy in this way, "holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." The NT uses the term 'prophet' for both NT and OT prophets and 'prophecy' for NT and OT prophecy. It makes sense, then, that NT prophecy is speaking as moved by the Holy Ghost.

The two witnesses will speak words the Holy Spirit gives them to say. They will speak as moved by the Holy Spirit. That is the nature of prophecy. Whether or not they prophecy of the future is of no consequence. You have no scripture to show that foretelling Spirit-inspired speech will cease, and that non-foretelling Spirit-inspired speech will continue. Why is this distinction important to you? Why is it a threat to your way of viewing things if the two witnesses did fortell the future?

 

[DHK]

Prophecy in the OT was not always foretelling. It was whatever the Lord wanted to say through the prophet. The same is true today.

The same is not true today. The canon of Scripture is complete and the canon is closed. God is not inspiring any person to speak with inspiration. Those who claim that they are are false prophets, condemned by God. Beware of them. All the revelation that we need is contained in the Word of God. It is the Bible that is "inspired of God and is profitable..." No other book, man, woman, or authority is inspired. The Bible alone is for that reason our only authority in matters of faith and practice. God has not and does not inspire individuals today. For that reason we automatically reject the Book of Mormon, RC Tradition, the ECF writings and all other such writings. They are not inspired. Only the Scriptures are inspired.

Peter describes OT prophecy in this way, "holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." The NT uses the term 'prophet' for both NT and OT prophets and 'prophecy' for NT and OT prophecy. It makes sense, then, that NT prophecy is speaking as moved by the Holy Ghost.

That is right. And that is why inspiration does not spread outside of the Bible. God inspired the writers of the Bible. To be more specific it was the words that they wrote that were inspired. They were simply the messengers that God used to write them. The only words that are inspired of God are contained in the Greek NT and the Hebrew OT which we have translated in our Bibles today.
If you look in 2Peter 3:1,2 you will see that Peter includes the prophets and the apostles as writers of Scriptures. He tells his listeners to be mindful of those words--the words of the apostles and the prophets. Why? Because only their words were inspired.

The two witnesses will speak words the Holy Spirit gives them to say. They will speak as moved by the Holy Spirit. That is the nature of prophecy. Whether or not they prophecy of the future is of no consequence. You have no scripture to show that foretelling Spirit-inspired speech will cease, and that non-foretelling Spirit-inspired speech will continue. Why is this distinction important to you? Why is it a threat to your way of viewing things if the two witnesses did fortell the future?

This is a complete red herring and has nothing to do with this topic. The event is future, so future that when it happens believers will already be in heaven. So it doesn't matter. We will be standing in front of God the Word, while these two prophets will be declaring the Word. Confine yourself to the time period before the rapture, and and after the resurrection, that is during this church age.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Prophecy in the OT was not always foretelling. It was whatever the Lord wanted to say through the prophet. The same is true today.

Peter describes OT prophecy in this way, "holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." The NT uses the term 'prophet' for both NT and OT prophets and 'prophecy' for NT and OT prophecy. It makes sense, then, that NT prophecy is speaking as moved by the Holy Ghost.

The two witnesses will speak words the Holy Spirit gives them to say. They will speak as moved by the Holy Spirit. That is the nature of prophecy. Whether or not they prophecy of the future is of no consequence. You have no scripture to show that foretelling Spirit-inspired speech will cease, and that non-foretelling Spirit-inspired speech will continue. Why is this distinction important to you? Why is it a threat to your way of viewing things if the two witnesses did fortell the future?

Actually, I do not feel threatened in the least bit. It appears to me that it is you that feel threatened. You must have more than what the Scripture lays out or you are insecure.

Well, Christ is all we need. He that is Perfect abides in His Children. That which is in part is done away with.

Quit struggling and rest in Christ.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest