Question About the Timing of Christ's Arrival

[Iconoclast]

humblethinker

Icon, we obviously disagree

.

Yes,,,one of us is in error.:thumbsup:

The OP asked: "My question simply put: Why did Christ come when He did?"

It seems that the first and simplest answer to Arbo from a determinist should be something along the lines of,

It seems that way...to you...because you do not understand the biblical teaching on these things from what I can see from your posts.Naturally you will disagree.
You and others use the term determinist and misunderstand the teaching to a point that you react against unbiblical fatalism instead.
You are in no position to comment on what you do not understand, as recently you tried to joke in the other thread about what a calvinist would think, showing you do not understand the position at all:thumbsup: the thread about the reprobate pervert in the unbiblical church.
Let us say what we say.....if we want advise we will ask for it:wavey:



[

I]"Your question is malformed and truly incoherent. There is no use in asking "Why?", except that your very action of inquiring was predetermined to occur. It is the case that whatever actually happens is what was predetermined to happen prior to creation."[/I] and then follow up with a Bible answer. But, after that first answer, how does it really matter what kind of explanation is given?

you repeat that same error...right here:wavey:

So, being as things are, you are content with your answer and I with mine.

Yes.... I will stand with those confessionsl saints who have seen the same thing as I see in scripture.

 

[Cypress]

humblethinker
.

Yes,,,one of us is in error.:thumbsup:

The OP asked: "My question simply put: Why did Christ come when He did?"


It seems that way...to you...because you do not understand the biblical teaching on these things from what I can see from your posts.Naturally you will disagree.
You and others use the term determinist and misunderstand the teaching to a point that you react against unbiblical fatalism instead.
You are in no position to comment on what you do not understand, as recently you tried to joke in the other thread about what a calvinist would think, showing you do not understand the position at all:thumbsup: the thread about the reprobate pervert in the unbiblical church.
Let us say what we say.....if we want advise we will ask for it:wavey:



[

you repeat that same error...right here:wavey:


Yes.... I will stand with those confessionsl saints who have seen the same thing as I see in scripture.

Iconoclast, please clear this up for me with a simple yes or no answer so that I understand your position. Do you believe that all things are already determined?

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, please clear this up for me with a simple yes or no answer so that I understand your position. Do you believe that all things are already determined?

Yes....all things will come to pass,according to the exact ways and means God has ordained. There is no plan B.It is not needed as God has a Holy wise and just purpose in all He has ordained.

Any thought or speculation apart from or denying God's holy purpose is nothing less than wicked rebellion against revealed truth.

Some things God has chosen not to reveal.He has revealed all we need that pertains to life and godliness.

Anything that is along the line of open theism is unbelief disguised in the name of schlorship.It is dangerous so much so that you see Paul in Rom9 addressing those types of questions and shutting them down.

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

Nothing exists or takes place apart from God and His absolute control. Not one molecule.

Cypress...keep in mind...that is from a Divine standpoint......we pray and preach to all men without exception as God has ordained such as part of the good works we are to perform..eph2:10.

Our salvation and sanctification unfold in real time...so when critics seek to diminish this truth they paint a caricature that looks like fatalism....rather than Calvinism. It is much easier to beat up the strawman,than study out the truth.

 

[humblethinker]

Nothing exists or takes place apart from God and His absolute control. Not one molecule.
...

...so when critics seek to diminish this truth they paint a caricature that looks like fatalism....rather than Calvinism. It is much easier to beat up the strawman,than study out the truth.

Can you present your case detailing how your belief is different from the caricature we make of it?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I like what you're saying here. Regarding your statement, "I believe that the appointed time was fixed", one question that is interesting to me is "At what time was the appointed time 'fixed'?".

I believe that God's purpose in sending Christ was an Eternal Purpose, and that Christ was "slain before the foundation of the world." Therefore...I don't believe that it was "fixed" IN time...but eternally. Remember, I am speaking from the perspective of someone who believes that time has a definite beginning and perspective end. I believe Christ's coming was "fixed" a-temporally at His appointed time.

Regarding the 'perfection' of the timing... it seems 'fullness' seems to have less to do with an idea of 'exact temporal specification' and more to do with a 'maturation'. All of the parts of an awesome opportunity to demonstrate his love for mankind and the opportunity to effectively communicate this demonstration to many generations to come, all of this culminated under his guidance and so, at the fullness -the maturation of opportunity to these ends- God acted.

I would agree with this, in the sense of what I posted initially and (if I understand him correctly) in accordance with what OR was trying to convey...however, unlike you, I don't believe, of course, that that time wasn't already "fixed". I guess I would say that what you are describing were the conditions which God chose to "fix" his coming to begin with.

This could also give light to why he didn't 'act' earlier: There just never was as good of a time to 'act'.

Arguably...He chose the ideal "time" to do act as did in accordance with His purposes.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

And therefore an atheist, at least in regards to the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible works all things after the council of His own will.

Don't use words too big for the subject. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite.

(C. S. Lewis)

 

[humblethinker]

I believe that God's purpose in sending Christ was an Eternal Purpose, and that Christ was "slain before the foundation of the world." Therefore...I don't believe that it was "fixed" IN time...but eternally. Remember, I am speaking from the perspective of someone who believes that time has a definite beginning and perspective end. I believe Christ's coming was "fixed" a-temporally at His appointed time.

I would agree with this, in the sense of what I posted initially and (if I understand him correctly) in accordance with what OR was trying to convey...however, unlike you, I don't believe, of course, that that time wasn't already "fixed". I guess I would say that what you are describing were the conditions which God chose to "fix" his coming to begin with.

Arguably...He chose the ideal "time" to do act as did in accordance with His purposes.

I agree in that I think that prior to creation God's determined to be incarnate and die to redeem mankind (I just wouldn't consider the existence prior to creation a 'timeless' existence, but as you indicated, you and I understand our disagreements on the theory of time).

Okay, so I think I'm following you regarding the idea that it was 'fixed' eternally. But it seems that you are saying that God set the timing of the incarnation... that he eternally determined that the incarnation would occur in 4 CE, at a time which we might identify as, let's say 10:05pm on December 25th. Do you not consent to the idea that many things leading up to the Incarnation were not also fixed eternally or was it the case that God, after the flood, knowing the time-table he set, orchestrated cultures and kingdoms such that they would be as they were at 4 CE? In your opinion, what else, besides the incarnation, was eternally fixed?

Oh, and regarding the OP... Maybe the answer to 'why didn't Jesus come sooner' is in some way dependent on the answer to the question 'Why didn't God create the world sooner?". ;-)

 

[TCGreek]

Is it safe to say, Speculative at best?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I agree in that I think that prior to creation God's determined to be incarnate and die to redeem mankind

Sort of, but remember, he didn't merely "determine" to be incarnate, and die to redeem mankind....He "WAS SLAIN" prior to the very foundations of the Earth. In some way, the Bible makes us wrap our heads around the idea that (inasmuch as God is concerned...) The whole ordeal was in some sense already carried-out, not merely "determined". I guess this somehow influences my belief that God is a-temporal...but regardless of our difference in our Philosophy of time:

that the incarnation would occur in 4 CE, at

No, I do not believe in 4 CE anything....A.D. yes....C.E...... no :tonofbricks:

Do you not consent to the idea that many things leading up to the Incarnation were not also fixed eternally or was it the case that God, after the flood, knowing the time-table he set, orchestrated cultures and kingdoms such that they would be as they were at 4 [blasphemy deleted] A.D? In your opinion, what else, besides the incarnation, was eternally fixed?

This may hinge upon what you call "fixed"....but I believe that EVERYTHING was "fixed". Not merely some things, but all of them. This includes not only THAT he would incarnate and die to redeem, but also WHEN he would. I do not think God chose his timing in a vacuum, but he determined what you said:" knowing the time-table he set, orchestrated cultures and kingdoms : I would say that he "fixed" both the conditions and the timing in accordance with one another. The conditions affected the timing.... T.C. did get one thing right, we are DECIDEDLY engaged in "speculation". I think that "speculation" of this sort is positive and a good thing in the right circumstances because it helps us understand Theology Proper IMO....but we are definitely "speculating".

Oh, and regarding the OP... Maybe the answer to 'why didn't Jesus come sooner' is in some way dependent on the answer to the question 'Why didn't God create the world sooner?". ;-)

:laugh::laugh::applause: