Question for all arminians

[Amy.G]

Jesus himself told us why some will not come to him and believe in him.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Jesus said men love darkness because it covers their deeds. They do not want to be reproved. The word reproved means to be corrected, convicted, refuted, shamed...

Men love their sin and do not want anyone to correct them. They do not want to give up sin, they love it.

These 2 verses have always confused me.

The man that loves darkness is unsaved, correct?

Who is the man that does truth? He would be a saved man, correct? His deeds are good and they show they have been wrought in God? That has to be a saved person. How did he get saved before coming to Jesus?

 

[Amy.G]

Am I being shunned?

 

[Winman]

Am I being shunned?

No, I have tried to answer twice, but am having a few wifi problems tonight. I will try again.

 

[Winman]

These 2 verses have always confused me.

The man that loves darkness is unsaved, correct?

Who is the man that does truth? He would be a saved man, correct? His deeds are good and they show they have been wrought in God? That has to be a saved person. How did he get saved before coming to Jesus?

Cornelius was not saved, and yet he feared God with all his house, gave much alms, and prayed always. We know he was not saved because of what the angel said to him.

Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Cornelius was not saved when the angel spoke to him, yet he had probably sought God for years, as he had a good reputation among all the Jews, who did not take to Gentiles. And God heard his prayers and recognized his good deeds.

It is the word of God that creates a desire to seek God as Cornelius did. No man can come to Jesus unless he has heard the word of God from the Father and believes it.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Calvinists are correct that no man can possibly come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, but they err on HOW this is done. It is done through the word of God which draws, convicts, and teaches a man. I could have never trusted Jesus unless I heard the gospel, and neither could you.

Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

A person who has come to Jesus has been forgiven and is righteous, therefore Jesus is speaking of unsaved, unregenerate persons here. It is the "truth", the word of God which creates desire in a man and draws him to Christ.

And this is what we see with Cornelius, he sought God with all his heart, and God answered his prayers and he was filled.

 

[Amy.G]

Thanks. :thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

Thanks. :thumbsup:

I had written much better posts (IMHO) but they were lost, I am using wifi tonight, weak signal.

Jesus is speaking of the word of God in John chapter 6.

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

The word of God is not ordinary words, they are spirit and life. But a man must believe them. Therefore, no man can come to Jesus unless he receives the word of God given him by the Father. This is what Jesus was saying in vs. 45, "every man" that has heard and been taught by the Father comes to him.

And how are we taught? Do we get supernaturally zapped with knowledge? NO. We are taught by the Holy Scriptures which were given by the Father. But again, you must believe. It was when you heard the word of God and believed it that you came to Jesus. This is how we ALL came, there is no other way.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe that's what he's trying to do. But why would you give him a calvinist-authored resource to compare against arminian beliefs? Why wouldn't you do as he did, and reference an arminian site, or even Arminius' works?

Don't forget; Christos has identified himself as a calvinist, and is seeking understanding into the arminian position.

Why would I as a Reformed believer do that.....I have no interest in it. But I will stay out of it.

 

[Don]

Why would I as a Reformed believer do that.....I have no interest in it. But I will stay out of it.

Why would you use arminian sources in order to argue against arminianism? The obvious answer is because you actually want to argue arminian viewpoints, not what someone else says are arminian viewpoints. If a non-cal says that calvinists believe this or that, when it's obvious they don't actually understand the calvinist view on that topic, would you encourage them to read what other non-cals think calvinists believe on the subject? Or would you post what Calvin himself and other calvinists have written on the subject?

If you only use materials from your side of the viewpoint, then do you actually understand what the other viewpoint really is?

This post is not necessarily directed at you; hope you understand that.

 

[Skandelon]

In other words, the chooser is his own reason for being.

I didn't say the chooser created himself. I said the chooser makes choices, just as the creator designed him with the ability to do.

This is idolatry, pure and simple.

That is absurd and not even worthy of a response.

 

[MB]

http://evangelicalarminians.org/?q=Are_You_an_Arminian_and_Dont_Even_Know_It

Survey: Are You an Arminian and Don't Even Know It?

In order for me to be an arminian I would have to have similar beliefs as that of Calvinist. There isn't much I believe to be similar with Calvinism.

3. Do you believe that a person can resist the convicting power of God’s grace?

If one believes God is full of grace this very fact means God is gracious in that He allows men the choice of whether or not to submit to the righteousness of God. Some Jews for instance seek God everyday yet because they refuse to accept Christ as the way of Salvation they are still in rebellion. Romans 10:1-4. I personally cannot understand how a Jew can be so close to Salvation and still reject it base solely on the words of Rabbi's. It seems to me they place a higher value on the words of mere men than God Him Self. Even the Old Testament tells us of Jesus Christ

• If you answered yes, then again you affirm another one of the central tenets of Arminianism, as reflected in Jesus’ words, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often I have longed to gather your children together…but you were not willing” (Matt 23:37)

Yet this does not make me an Arminian. Hindus for example could also believe everything a man does is predetermined yet this wouldn't make them Calvinist, would it?

• Calvinists argue that God has determined which individuals will believe; to make their faith possible, he calls them to salvation in such a way that their own wills are overpowered so that they cannot possibly resist the call to salvation.
[/quote]
Are you just a puppet? How convient this would be. We could blame God for our rebellion. A means of a back up defense before the throne. This of course just in case you are completely wrong in you assumation and what other men have taught you. Simply this view is not in scripture nor is it even implied.

• Arminians believe that God truly wants every one to believe; but when God enables a person to believe, he does so in such a way that the individual still can resist the convicting power of the Spirit--faith is not a necessary outcome of God's enabling grace

This is yet another of your assumptions. Arminians believe they were created with freewill and the works of God has nothing to do with man's own rebellion

I am not here to argue nor debate, only understand.

It certainly seems you do want to argue it because of your assumptions that you are absolutely right and those of us who are not Calvinist are absoluely wrong

I am not saying this isn't true, but isn't it a stretch from that one verse? I do not see this in the bible anywhere. That God enables a person to believe in such a way that the individual can still resist the "convincing" power of the Spirit?

The reason you do not see it is the same reason I do not see God enabling someone who was previously disabled.
Man has never been disabled from believing in the gospel this is just a Calvinist fairy tale. The opposite of something that has been assumed to be true requires another assumation to defeat it and I don't believe in assumations.

Let's say, it's true. What makes believers or unbelievers unique from one another in that one can and the other can't resist the power of the Spirit?

Thank you my friends :love2:

Simple it's called freewill to make choices for our selves. It's why we can be held responsible for our choices.
MB

 

[Skandelon]

Cornelius was not saved, and yet he feared God with all his house, gave much alms, and prayed always. We know he was not saved because of what the angel said to him.

Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Cornelius was not saved when the angel spoke to him, yet he had probably sought God for years, as he had a good reputation among all the Jews, who did not take to Gentiles. And God heard his prayers and recognized his good deeds.

It is the word of God that creates a desire to seek God as Cornelius did. No man can come to Jesus unless he has heard the word of God from the Father and believes it.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Calvinists are correct that no man can possibly come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, but they err on HOW this is done. It is done through the word of God which draws, convicts, and teaches a man. I could have never trusted Jesus unless I heard the gospel, and neither could you.

Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

A person who has come to Jesus has been forgiven and is righteous, therefore Jesus is speaking of unsaved, unregenerate persons here. It is the "truth", the word of God which creates desire in a man and draws him to Christ.

And this is what we see with Cornelius, he sought God with all his heart, and God answered his prayers and he was filled.

:thumbsup: Well stated Winman.