Question for Arminians

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by saturneptune:
Craigbythesea,
It is hard enough to decide where to come out on this issue without your babbling rants. There are very thoughtful posts here and in other threads for calvinism and free will, and I appreciate them. However, your are on both sides of the issue, outside the issue, and quite frankly, it appears you have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe your energy would be better served by using that hot air to drive a wind mill so someone could at least get the benefit of electricity from your hot air.

Perhaps instead of posting libelous and malicious ad hominem attacks like an apostate infidel you could post precisely what I said that you believe to be incorrect and provide data to support your reason why you believe that I am incorrect. Everything that I have posted on this message board regarding Arminian theology is solidly based upon the writings of James Arminius and the writings Arminian scholars recognized around the world for their contribution to the study of Christian theology. If you believe that you have found a specific exception in any of my posts, and have the necessary background in Arminian theology to show us where I was incorrect, please post that specific alleged exception so that we can all see it and consider the validity of you belief. Otherwise, please keep your libelous and malicious ad hominem attacks to yourself.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Humblesmith:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
According to John Calvin, God is not sovereign at all but totally in subjection to John Calvin's personal theology that he dug out of a dumpster behind a Wal-Mart store.

This is not AT ALL fair to Calvin. I certainly don't hold to all of what Calvin taught, but it's not fair to take a man's life work and drag it through the mud. Calvin wrote many volumes...a 22 volume commentary on the bible, plus many other books. He came along at a time in church history when we needed a careful theologian. So I humbly suggest that you read Calvin in context....(not calvinism, but Calvin himself).

Much of what has given Calvin a bad name has been his followers who took the teachings further than their mentor. Ditto with Arminius. </font>[/QUOTE]My perspective of the role of Calvin in church history and the development of Christian theology is very much different than yours. From my perspective, based upon the actual writings of Calvin, especially his commentary on Romans, his Institutes of the Christian Religion, and other writings in which he expressed his views on the atonement of Christ, he failed to see in the Scriptures the efficacy of the atonement of Christ in freeing men from their bondage to sin. Indeed, to a very substantial extent he expressly denied the efficacy of the atonement of Christ in the practical life of the believer and actively and aggressively shared that denial with many.

If that was all the damage that he did to the development of post-reformation Christian theology, I might be willing to cut the man a little bit of slack, but throughout his writings he aggressively assaulted the historical teaching of the Church regarding the sovereignty of God, the state of man before and after conversion to the Christian faith, the responsibility of the Christian to live a life free from sin, conditional election to salvation, the atonement of Christ for the benefit of all men, Biblical anthropology, the repugnance to God of all sin, and the absolute holiness of God.

Therefore, from my perspective, God raised up Martin Luther and the devil raised up John Calvin. Is this an Arminian point of view? No it is not. It is my personal point of view based upon the writings of John Calvin and the impact that they have had on the Church.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Humblesmith:
Sitting here studying for tomorrow, and found these two verses, and thought of this thread.

“Come now, let us reason together,”
says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.


Always note who is causing the action in scripture....it's very revealing. I certainly see self-caused action in 19 and 20.

Amen!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Revmitchell:
Love is freewill, sin is freewill, obedience is freewill.

Okay, prove it. Show us that you have the free will to be 100% obedient, 100% of the time from now until the rest of your life. If it's a choice, and you say you have the free will to make that choice, so make the choice and stick to it no matter what. I'm not just talking about actions. Remember, if you even look at a woman with lust in your heart, you will have as much as commited adultery with her, so no looking and lusting.

You don't have to worry about, that, though, because you can decide of your own free will not to feel any temptation. After all, obedience is free will, right? </font>[/QUOTE]The Bible is full of naysayers, and like the Bible, the church is full of naysayers. Should I believe the naysayers who deny of efficacy of the atonement of Christ or should I believe the Christ who atoned for my sins and set me free from sin?

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. NASB, 1995)

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
The Bible is full of naysayers, and like the Bible, the church is full of naysayers. Should I believe the naysayers who deny of efficacy of the atonement of Christ or should I believe the Christ who atoned for my sins and set me free from sin?

Whatever you believe, prove it with your choices. Decide of your own free will right now that you will never sin again, period. Not in thought or deed.

Ignore 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Instead, stick with the idea that you are totally set free from sin, and you can do anything of your own free will. So live it and never sin in thought or deed ever again. If you can get through the rest of your life without another sin in thought or deed, then you'll have scored a point for free will.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
The Bible is full of naysayers, and like the Bible, the church is full of naysayers. Should I believe the naysayers who deny of efficacy of the atonement of Christ or should I believe the Christ who atoned for my sins and set me free from sin?

Whatever you believe, prove it with your choices. Decide of your own free will right now that you will never sin again, period. Not in thought or deed.

Ignore 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Instead, stick with the idea that you are totally set free from sin, and you can do anything of your own free will. So live it and never sin in thought or deed ever again. If you can get through the rest of your life without another sin in thought or deed, then you'll have scored a point for free will. </font>[/QUOTE]The proof is in the Word of God—not in the lives of any given human individuals. And how sad it is that many have memorized 1 John 1.8-10 but choose to ignore what John wrote in chapter 3 of the same epistle.

1 John 3:2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

And how convenient it is to forget that this epistle was written to a group of people who did not believe that God had come in the flesh in the person of Jesus the Christ and who did not believe in the concept of sin rather than to a body of mature, Christian believers.

1. What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--
2. and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
3. what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
5. This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
6. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7. but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I need to go to bed. Good night!

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Is this some kind of a Joke? Revelation 3:20 has NOTHING to do with anyone getting saved—the people in the context of Rev. 3:20 are already saved! Arminian theologians do NOT believe that man has a sovereign free will nor do they deny the sovereignty of God!

And yet, this is the verse that they always use in the context of salvation. That is why I quoted it, because THEY use it that way. They believe man has a sovereign free will in that it overrules the sovereignty of God in many areas. If God is at the mercy of man's choice, man's choice, by default, is sovereign. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Uh, care to explain the following??

They believe man has a sovereign free will in that it overrules the sovereignty of God

"Sovereign" =Supreme, Superior.

How can "Two" wills be "sovereign" in the same arena, they can't???

Our Federal Government has "Sovereignty" in certain areas and State Government possesses Sovereignty in certain area,

And the federal must "approve" all "request" from the states before they can "enter" the "domain" of the Federal's "Sovereignty".

Best examine the "foundation" on which your belief is based.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Uh, care to explain the following??

They believe man has a sovereign free will in that it overrules the sovereignty of God

"Sovereign" =Supreme, Superior.

How can "Two" wills be "sovereign" in the same arena, they can't???

Our Federal Government has "Sovereignty" in certain areas and State Government possesses Sovereignty in certain area,

And the federal must "approve" all "request" from the states before they can "enter" the "domain" of the Federal's "Sovereignty".

Best examine the "foundation" on which your belief is based. [/QB]

My point is exactly that two wills can't be sovereign. Free-willers (that's what I think I'll call them from now on instead of Arminians), suggest that God is sovereign over everything EXCEPT man's choices. True, they admit that He could be if He wanted to, but He decided not to be, thus, in their minds, protecting His sovereignty. Man's free will is sovereign over His choices in that God is not allowed to override it.

This is what I say is unbiblical. God is sovereign over absolutely everything. Man's choices are sub-serviant to God's will. God can, and does, override man's will on many occasions in Scripture and in modern life. God's sometimes changes man's will so that they then desire what He does rather than fighting it. It is clear that this is a promise of the New Covenant.

Ezekiel 36:24-27 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Notice God gathers His people. He sprinkles clean water on them. He cleanses them from their filthiness. He gives them a new heart (changes their nature - REGENERATION). He puts a new spirit in them (If any one be in Christ, he is a new creation). He puts His Spirit within them. He CAUSES them to walk in His statutes.

This is all God overriding the free will of His creatures who were running the other direction. This is God changing their nature so that they willingly obey Him. This is God's sovereignty in action.

Please don't try to equate God's sovereignty with the federal/state bureaucracy that we have created. They have absolutely nothing in common.

[ March 05, 2006, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Calvibaptist ]

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
Uh, care to explain the following??

They believe man has a sovereign free will in that it overrules the sovereignty of God

"Sovereign" =Supreme, Superior.

How can "Two" wills be "sovereign" in the same arena, they can't???

Our Federal Government has "Sovereignty" in certain areas and State Government possesses Sovereignty in certain area,

And the federal must "approve" all "request" from the states before they can "enter" the "domain" of the Federal's "Sovereignty".

Best examine the "foundation" on which your belief is based.

My point is exactly that two wills can't be sovereign. Free-willers (that's what I think I'll call them from now on instead of Arminians), suggest that God is sovereign over everything EXCEPT man's choices. True, they admit that He could be if He wanted to, but He decided not to be, thus, in their minds, protectin His sovereignty. Man's free will is sovereign over His choices in that God is not allowed to override it.

This is what I say is unbiblical. God is sovereign over absolutely everything. </font>[/QUOTE]Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God.


Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

IF God is sovereign, then why does man have the "sovereign will" to obey/disobey God's commandments,

and why would man have to "SUBMIT" "Man's sovereign will" to "God's sovereign will"???

Your "example" above omits the "FACT" that "NO MAN" comes to the father except by Jesus, and "NO MAN" gets to Jesus EXCEPT... BY FAITH.

God's "sovereign will" NEVER operates "Outside" the "plan of salvation" through FAITH in JESUS.

Now how/why was they "washed clean"??


Calvin contradicts scripture in every arena.

 

[Revmitchell]

(And yet, this is the verse that they always use in the context of salvation. That is why I quoted it, because THEY use it that way. They believe man has a sovereign free will in that it overrules the sovereignty of God in many areas. If God is at the mercy of man's choice, man's choice, by default, is sovereign. )

If you are going to speak to what "they" believe then be sure you are correct. Those of us who believe in freewill do not believe that that freewill overides gods soveriegnty. But believe that Gods soveriegnty and freewill as provided to us by God are not diabolically apposed. But God works his soveriegn will in the midst of our freewill which he provided us.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God.


Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

IF God is sovereign, then why does man have the "sovereign will" to obey/disobey God's commandments,

and why would man have to "SUBMIT" "Man's sovereign will" to "God's sovereign will"???

Your "example" above omits the "FACT" that "NO MAN" comes to the father except by Jesus, and "NO MAN" gets to Jesus EXCEPT... BY FAITH.

God's "sovereign will" NEVER operates "Outside" the "plan of salvation" through FAITH in JESUS.

Now how/why was they "washed clean"??


Calvin contradicts scripture in every arena. [/QB]

Your response is non-sensical.

 

[Revmitchell]

Gods soveriegnty doesnt mean that he controls every little move like a puppet. Gods soveriegnty means he is in control in the midst of our freewill.

My children which are 5,6, and 8 go through their day making decisions for themselves. They chooose what game they are playing, to play or to read, even to choose which item to eat next on their plate.

But I am their Father and I am still in control in the midst of their personal choices. I watch and protect them from harm, and work to guide them to make decisions that are good for them. Sometimes I have to lay down the law. But while I give them choices for themselves I remain in control.

Having no freewill does not allow for growth. It would keep us imature not being able to make decisions for ourself. I give my children some room to make some decisions for themselves based on their age so that they grow mentally and mature. I could take that away from them but that is not to their greatest good in the end.

Why did Paul write to the Corinthians? In Ch 3 he says you are imature. And it is because there is division in the church. Which is from false teachings. You have chosen to follow these false teachers. They were believers and they had made a choice to follow false teachers.

How does choosing to sin or not to sin speak against freewill? Are you implying that Satan is soveriegn? Are you saying that we have no choice but to sin?

Or are you saying that the elect sins no more?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Guys, Pay attention.

None of us Calvinists say that man doesn't make choices or that God sovereignly determines every little choice a man is going to make, like what item they are going to eat next on their plate.

What we are saying is that unregenerate man's will is in no way free. It is in bondage to sin. It can no more make a spiritual free decision than a dead man can make a physical free decision to get up out of the coffin.

You guys are acting like the Bible never teaches that unbelievers don't want God. It is all over the Bible that the unregenerate don't want, don't seek, don't love, don't anything. They hate God, because that is what their nature is.

There are clear times in Scripture when God sovereignly overrules men's will and uses men's choices to accomplish His ends. This is what we are saying the Bible teaches about salvation.

God determines who is going to be saved and uses our choices to achieve His ends. Again, primary and secondary causes.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Revmitchell:
(And yet, this is the verse that they always use in the context of salvation. That is why I quoted it, because THEY use it that way. They believe man has a sovereign free will in that it overrules the sovereignty of God in many areas. If God is at the mercy of man's choice, man's choice, by default, is sovereign. )

If you are going to speak to what "they" believe then be sure you are correct. Those of us who believe in freewill do not believe that that freewill overides gods soveriegnty. But believe that Gods soveriegnty and freewill as provided to us by God are not diabolically apposed. But God works his soveriegn will in the midst of our freewill which he provided us.

If God works his sovereign will in the midst of any choice you make then your will is not free. Your will is beholden to the will of God. If you are going to use the term free will then use it correctly. Men do not have free will. They have a will, but it is either in bondage to sin or in bondage to Christ.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Men do not have free will. They have a will, but it is either in bondage to sin or in bondage to Christ. [/QB]

YES, but God calls, and we can either "SUBMIT/YIELD" to his will or keep following the "Will of the flesh",

this "CHOICE" is what Calvin denies as being "offered" to "ALL MEN".

We're saved by "FAITH" in Jesus, "belief/unbelief", and it comes "BEFORE" God's "GRACE" to "regenerate" or leave us in sin.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield (submit) yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: (CALL) if any man hear my voice, and open the door, (submit/yield) I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (obedience unto righteousness)

IF man doesn't open the door, "sin unto death".

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
Whatever you believe, prove it with your choices. Decide of your own free will right now that you will never sin again, period. Not in thought or deed.

The proof is in the Word of God—not in the lives of any given human individuals. And how sad it is that many have memorized 1 John 1.8-10 but choose to ignore what John wrote in chapter 3 of the same epistle.

1 John 3:2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.</font>[/QUOTE]You don't see the distinction between the verses, obviously. I don't see how you can ignore the distinction because John would be contradicting himself otherwise. "Everyone who practices sin." The Greek tense is like "sins continually". There's a difference between commiting a sin and practicing it.

My point is simply that if you believe obedience is free will, then prove it by exercising your free will never to sin ever again, in thought or in deed. That's the power of free will that you have, right? I don't mean "stop practicing sin" I mean "decide to never sin again, in thought or in deed". Prove that you have free will by exercising it to accomplish this.

You can quote me scripture on end - I can quote you scripture on end, too. I'm saying the proof is in the pudding. If you really believe that obedience is a matter of free will, then exercise your free will to be perfect. Then get back to me and tell me that obedience is free will. Otherwise the statement "obedience is free will" is nothing more than hot air.

 

[npetreley]

By the way, there's also the small matter of the fact that if obedience is free will, then Christ died in vain. There's no point in dying for our sins if we have the free will to be able to decide not to commit any.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Men do not have free will. They have a will, but it is either in bondage to sin or in bondage to Christ.

YES, but God calls, and we can either "SUBMIT/YIELD" to his will or keep following the "Will of the flesh",

this "CHOICE" is what Calvin denies as being "offered" to "ALL MEN".

We're saved by "FAITH" in Jesus, "belief/unbelief", and it comes "BEFORE" God's "GRACE" to "regenerate" or leave us in sin.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield (submit) yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: (CALL) if any man hear my voice, and open the door, (submit/yield) I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (obedience unto righteousness)

IF man doesn't open the door, "sin unto death". [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]One problem with your whole little scenario: Romans 6 was written to Christians telling them that they had the option to obey or disobey. It was not written to unbelievers to tell them how to get saved. Unless, of course, you want to believe in a works salvation.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
this "CHOICE" is what Calvin denies as being "offered" to "ALL MEN".

1) We are not talking about what John Calvin believes, so, really, who cares what John Calvin admits or denies. We are talking about what I believe the Scripture says compared to what you believe the Scripture says.

2) I, nor John Calvin, deny that the choice is offered to all men to obey or disobey. We believe that the Bible teaches that, because of the fall, all men will not choose correctly no matter how many times the choice is put in front of them. They have no tastebuds for spiritual food. They have no desire for the treasure of God.

3) Until God awakens a spiritual sense within them, they will continue in their sin, thinking it is the way that is right, but the end of it is only death.

SO, we don't deny any of the verses that you guys continually put to prove your point. You have yet to find in the Scripture where it says that, despite the fact that the choice is there, mankind has the ability to choose correctly. And before you say that I have to prove that the ability is not there, I have already given you many Scriptures relating to man's lack of ability.