Calvibaptist
New Member
This is what Pelagius believed, which is why he was labelled a heretic. I'm not sure that Arminius went this far though.
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Question for Arminians
- Thread starter Calvibaptist
- Start date
Calvibaptist
New Member
By your statement it looks like you are saying someone can believe and be saved, and then God can decide to leave them in sin?!? I'm pretty sure you didn't mean that, but that is the possibility your statement leaves open.
Humblesmith
Member
Again, I encourage each of you to read Calvin and Arminius, not what others claim they said. A portion of what passes for calvinism and arminiamism was not taught by either man. Before we drag either one's name through the mud, we should be clear on what they taught, not what some disciple or enemy of theirs said they taught.
A non-emotional, secular example may suffice. A philosopher named Hegel is widely accepted as teaching a method of thesis--antithesis--synthesis, so much so that the method bears his name....Hegelian Dialectic. However, Hegel never taught it. Not once does it appear in any of his writings. He mentions it only once in a preface, and then only to deny it! Yet most all of modern scholarship thinks he taught it, and this is because someone else said he taught it. Similar things have happened with Calvin and Arminius.
A non-emotional, secular example may suffice. A philosopher named Hegel is widely accepted as teaching a method of thesis--antithesis--synthesis, so much so that the method bears his name....Hegelian Dialectic. However, Hegel never taught it. Not once does it appear in any of his writings. He mentions it only once in a preface, and then only to deny it! Yet most all of modern scholarship thinks he taught it, and this is because someone else said he taught it. Similar things have happened with Calvin and Arminius.
Timtoolman
New Member
Humblesmith. Have you ever tried to read calvin. I have and I have read alot of Spurgeon. How do we know who the real calvinist are if they all have a different noise?
Timtoolman
New Member
1) We are not talking about what John Calvin believes, so, really, who cares what John Calvin admits or denies. We are talking about what I believe the Scripture says compared to what you believe the Scripture says.
2) I, nor John Calvin, deny that the choice is offered to all men to obey or disobey. We believe that the Bible teaches that, because of the fall, all men will not choose correctly no matter how many times the choice is put in front of them. They have no tastebuds for spiritual food. They have no desire for the treasure of God.
3) Until God awakens a spiritual sense within them, they will continue in their sin, thinking it is the way that is right, but the end of it is only death.
SO, we don't deny any of the verses that you guys continually put to prove your point. You have yet to find in the Scripture where it says that, despite the fact that the choice is there, mankind has the ability to choose correctly. And before you say that I have to prove that the ability is not there, I have already given you many Scriptures relating to man's lack of ability. </font>[/QUOTE]And yet many many more say there are verses through out the bible that show absolutely there is free will to choose salvation. I mean God doesn't even have freee will according to you. CAn God lie, will or can He destroy the world with a flood?
Tell you what calvi. Lets make a truce. You pick the book that you feels explains calvinism in the best, simpliest way and I will buy it for all and we will discuss it. I mean for Me4him and Helen and the other non calvies on here. If they are all willing. HOws that sound?
Calvibaptist
New Member
God's will is absolutely free. That is how He describes Himself to Moses on Mt. Sinai and repeated in Romans 9. "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." If God's will is limited in any way (big if) it is He who limits it, therefore it is not something outside Himself. In fact, such an argument is nonsensical, because if God limits His will, it is His will to limit His will. My argument is that man's will is limited not by his own free choice, but by the fact that he is born in sin.
Honestly, I would rather discuss the Scripture, than what some Calvinist or non-Calvinist has to say. I really, truly only care what the Bible says. That is why I'm amazed when you guys supposedly keep quoting Calvin, knowing that you've never read him.
Luke 16:29 They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Timtoolman
New Member
God's will is absolutely free. That is how He describes Himself to Moses on Mt. Sinai and repeated in Romans 9. "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." If God's will is limited in any way (big if) it is He who limits it, therefore it is not something outside Himself. In fact, such an argument is nonsensical, because if God limits His will, it is His will to limit His will. My argument is that man's will is limited not by his own free choice, but by the fact that he is born in sin.
Honestly, I would rather discuss the Scripture, than what some Calvinist or non-Calvinist has to say. I really, truly only care what the Bible says. That is why I'm amazed when you guys supposedly keep quoting Calvin, knowing that you've never read him.
Luke 16:29 They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. </font>[/QUOTE]Well then calvi lets put you on the spot then. Lets take each peddle a step at a time or one thing at a time as you desire. But do not be mad if you find out the same charges are brought against you. It is was calvinist are saying that makes all others says "well that makes God that author of sin" or " so that makes us all robots which do not have relationship." or "total unability is not in the bible that is a calvinist term to describe depravity which is not biblical." etc. See it is what you say. I am sorry but non calvinist, many, not all, do understand quit well what is being said.And actually I have read some of calvis's teaching, and much much of Spurgeons. So don't go calling people a liar unless you know they are. Matter of fact I read more Spurgeon in bible college days then I did any other. And I still do not believe calvinism to be true Bible.
Tim
Timtoolman
New Member
No, according to the quote, if man doesn't hear, he won't even know Jesus is knocking at the door.
And who gives a man the ability to hear?
Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day. </font>[/QUOTE]Man that seems just like Adam RIGHT after the fall! But wait Adam in his fallen state could hear the call of God. Adam hadn't been regenerated yet because there had been no blood spilled for the remission of sin. Hmmmmm. Oh wait we don't like that part of the Bible. Man right after the fall. Thats right.
And here we have God making sure that the unregenate man, who is "TOTALLY UNABLE TO RESPOND" being blinded and made deaf! Yeah logic and common sense do not abound here! Let alone scripture.
And here we have God making sure that the unregenate man, who is "TOTALLY UNABLE TO RESPOND" being blinded and made deaf! Yeah logic and common sense do not abound here! Let alone scripture. </font>[/QUOTE]I think the problem here is reading comprehension.
"Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day."
This describes men who start out not having the ability to understand or hear. Why? God has not yet given this ability to them.
You have twisted these plain words that any 4 year old can understand into meaning that these men have the innate ability to hear and understand, but God has blinded them and made them deaf. There are passages where God blinds people, but this isn't one of them.
Reading comprehension. It's a terrible thing to waste.
And here we have God making sure that the unregenate man, who is "TOTALLY UNABLE TO RESPOND" being blinded and made deaf! Yeah logic and common sense do not abound here! Let alone scripture. </font>[/QUOTE]I think the problem here is reading comprehension.
"Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day."
This describes men who start out not having the ability to understand or hear. Why? God has not yet given this ability to them.
You have twisted these plain words that any 4 year old can understand into meaning that these men have the innate ability to hear and understand, but God has blinded them and made them deaf. There are passages where God blinds people, but this isn't one of them.
Reading comprehension. It's a terrible thing to waste. </font>[/QUOTE]Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand (Believe) with their heart,
and should be converted,
and I should heal them.
So who's fault is it that their eyes are closed and they are not heal,
"IF" they had "open their eyes", would they have been healed??
Sovereign will is kinda "mixed up" isn't it???
But You are right, "reading comprehension" is "terrible".
Yes, your reading comprehension doesn't seem to improve at all no matter how much we go over these same passages.Originally posted by Me4Him:
Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand (Believe) with their heart,
and should be converted,
and I should heal them.
So who's fault is it that their eyes are closed and they are not heal,
"IF" they had "open their eyes", would they have been healed??
Sovereign will is kinda "mixed up" isn't it???
But You are right, "reading comprehension" is "terrible".
Whose fault is it that they are unable to hear? Their own.
Why are they blind and deaf and stuck in unbelief? Because if they weren't they would turn and convert and be healed.
What you have totally failed to find in this passage is the answer to the question, "Who, then, can open their eyes and ears?" Can they do it on their own? Or does God have to do it?
I already answered that question with other scripture, but you still don't seem to be able to comprehend it.
Yes, your reading comprehension doesn't seem to improve at all no matter how much we go over these same passages.Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand (Believe) with their heart,
and should be converted,
and I should heal them.
So who's fault is it that their eyes are closed and they are not heal,
"IF" they had "open their eyes", would they have been healed??
Sovereign will is kinda "mixed up" isn't it???
But You are right, "reading comprehension" is "terrible".
Whose fault is it that they are unable to hear? Their own.
Why are they blind and deaf and stuck in unbelief? Because if they weren't they would turn and convert and be healed.
What you have totally failed to find in this passage is the answer to the question, "Who, then, can open their eyes and ears?" Can they do it on their own? Or does God have to do it?
I already answered that question with other scripture, but you still don't seem to be able to comprehend it. </font>[/QUOTE]The point you missed is that GOD TRIED to save them but THEY didn't want to "HEAR" him.
"WHY" would God make a "CALL" to someone he hasn't "predestined" to be saved????
Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Would you care to explain why God waste his time makes calls to people he knows aren't going to accept it, or is it for a purpose???
If they have the power to close them, evidently they were already open when God called, then they were "closed".
Timtoolman
New Member
God had already done many miracles and yet they rejected him. It is so clear I figured if npet couldn't see it, he may be one of the blind. But you carry on Me4him. I appreciate your time and thought put into these post.
Tim
Tim
I am still not as wise as all of you, so I will respond in the same manner as I did to the Question to Calvinist. I have not found a command word for word that tells us to pray for the salvation of others, but I know that Paul prayed that way;
Romans 10:1; “Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that
they might be saved.”
Paul prayed for the salvation of Israel. Also, we are told to pray for them that use us. What are we to pray, that they not use us any more? Or, that God might forgive them?
Matthew 5:44; “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.”
Did not Jesus also ask that the Father forgive the ones who crucified Him? (Luke 23:34) What kind of forgiveness did Jesus ask the Father for, a partial forgiveness? Or, was it a complete forgiveness? Salvation?
James also tells us of praying for the sick, that sins might be forgiven;
James 5:15; “And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.”
This question of "predestination" is one for the ages...lol
Really, to whom is it predestination? By definition, if we break this word down, is it not “pre” (before) “Destination” (arrival point)? Isn't the Word of God really telling us, that God knew our point of arrival before we did?
It is not predestination to God, it is NOW! Moreover, it is fact. I feel God places things (people, trees, animals) within the framework of time for our understanding, not His. He is timeless and sees the big picture. I know that the many of you who are wiser and more gifted then I will pick this apart, so be it. We must be careful, that we do not try to explain God using our attributes, but must instead use the attributes of God to explain who and why we are.
We are mandated to share the Gospel. We do not provide salvation, God does. If God knows who is to be saved, that fact does not release us from our responsibility to share. We give ourselves far to much credit. We are to do what God ask us to do no matter what the world or other Christian feel we should do. If God is God, then He must know all things. If there is something that God does not know, then we are in deep trouble.
In Christ humble Service,
Humilis
First, where does it say God "tried" to save them?
Second, if God "tried" to save them and failed, then to call God an underachiever would be an understatement. "Incompetent" would be more appropriate.
Third, if free will was true, then Matthew 22:14 would have read, "For many are called, but few chose."
First, where does it say God "tried" to save them?
Second, if God "tried" to save them and failed, then to call God an underachiever would be an understatement. "Incompetent" would be more appropriate.
Third, if free will was true, then Matthew 22:14 would have read, "For many are called, but few chose." </font>[/QUOTE]"JUSTICE" demands that "ALL" be "OFFERED" a "Pardon" from sin,
The reason Jesus died for sins of the "unsaved" and God's calls to the "unsaved" is so that "NONE" can claim, or prove, God is an "UN-JUST" "GOD/JUDGE", on Judgment day.
People are condemned because Jesus die for their sins and they rejected his payment, therefore God is "JUSTIFIED" to make them pay those wages themselves.
"OUR FAITH" (Belief) in Jesus will "MERIT" God's Grace, Jesus paying for our sins, that God's plan of salvation, not mine, read the scriptures,
and "UNBELIEF" will leave the wages of sin "Unpaid", requiring the person to pay those wages by being condemned.
Jesus died to pay the wages of sin for the WHOLE WORLD, but unless we believe, his death won't be counted/viewed as "our death" to pay those wages,
do you know what "IN CHRIST"..."BODY OF CHRIST"...."REALLY MEANS"???
This "double payment" of sin espoused by Calvin is "Ignorance" of scripture at it's "pinnacle".
Oh, really? Is that why people are in jail today? Because they rejected the justice system's offer for a pardon for their crimes?
Justice demands that all be condemned for their sin.
Oh really? I'd love to see the scriptural support for this.
God is justified to make everyone pay for their sins, period.
Ah, so Grace is actually "merited favor". Folks, this is, in a nutshell, the key to why free willism is so appealing to the flesh. It allows men to take credit for their own salvation. The belief in salvation by free will choice is the one way to merit unmerited favor.
And "JUSTICE" demand that if one is "Offered" a "Pardon" on the conditions of "belief", the "ALL" should be offered a pardon under the "Same conditions", Belief.
The function of "Law" is the same, regardless if it's God's laws" of "Man's laws", which are patterned according to God's laws.
Yep, the reason Jesus died for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD", so the WHOLE WORLD".. MIGHT BE..saved.
Ro 10:9 That...if thou... shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and (That...if thou...) shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,
thou shalt be saved.
You don't get "GOD'S GRACE" until "YOU" "FIRST" believe in Jesus, that "CHOICE" to "believe" in Jesus "opens the door" to "GRACE".
"FAITH" doesn't pay the "wages of sin", however Jesus did,
your're actually saying God is not "obligated" to "honor" Jesus's death for the sins of the whole world, if he doesn't want to, and even "IF" they chose to believe,
Do you really believe the "garbage" that God would not honor Jesus death for "ALL SINS" if all people believed???
Timtoolman
New Member
I am still not as wise as all of you, so I will respond in the same manner as I did to the Question to Calvinist. I have not found a command word for word that tells us to pray for the salvation of others, but I know that Paul prayed that way;
Romans 10:1; “Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that
they might be saved.”
Paul prayed for the salvation of Israel. Also, we are told to pray for them that use us. What are we to pray, that they not use us any more? Or, that God might forgive them?
Matthew 5:44; “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.”
Did not Jesus also ask that the Father forgive the ones who crucified Him? (Luke 23:34) What kind of forgiveness did Jesus ask the Father for, a partial forgiveness? Or, was it a complete forgiveness? Salvation?
James also tells us of praying for the sick, that sins might be forgiven;
James 5:15; “And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.”
This question of "predestination" is one for the ages...lol
Really, to whom is it predestination? By definition, if we break this word down, is it not “pre” (before) “Destination” (arrival point)? Isn't the Word of God really telling us, that God knew our point of arrival before we did?
It is not predestination to God, it is NOW! Moreover, it is fact. I feel God places things (people, trees, animals) within the framework of time for our understanding, not His. He is timeless and sees the big picture. I know that the many of you who are wiser and more gifted then I will pick this apart, so be it. We must be careful, that we do not try to explain God using our attributes, but must instead use the attributes of God to explain who and why we are.
We are mandated to share the Gospel. We do not provide salvation, God does. If God knows who is to be saved, that fact does not release us from our responsibility to share. We give ourselves far to much credit. We are to do what God ask us to do no matter what the world or other Christian feel we should do. If God is God, then He must know all things. If there is something that God does not know, then we are in deep trouble.
In Christ humble Service,
Humilis </font>[/QUOTE]Great post Humilis. Jump right in. You make some good pts. One thing you have to beware of is that terms and definitions are not the same in the calvinist world and the non. And the strawmen they build...as above in Cal's post ...that he was looking for a verse that deals with man's sovereign will. Yet if you read over the many, many and agian I say many post I dare say you will not find one non-calvinist who has made such a statement. YOu will find many who have said that man has free will but never slows, stops or discourages God's will in the least.
No one here is smarter then you are and if you don't understand something say so and make us make it clear too you.
Tim