Question for Arminians

[ReformedBaptist]

With regard to my statement of 'undeniable ignorance' toward you, you previously thought was an attact, I explained, and you thanked me for explaining and understood what I was meaning. Now you are going back and saying you still think it was an attack. Make up your mind!

This is probably due to online discussions. The two most active participants in this thread are you and winman. And we are spinning our wheels while one cries against the other that they are being attacked.

I accepted your explaination that your choice of words was not an attack. And then you say I am attacking you or others when I call the non-cal view and arminianism/semi-pelagianism human reasoning and unbiblical.

My understanding of the Scripture here has been called a false teaching on this thread.

I don't consider that an attack, but rather a disagreement or someone's opinion. But you called my opinion of Arminian/non-cal a personal attack on you.

Allen, I was just calling you out on this point. But I am tired of squabbling over it.

In a discussion like this it is normal for one topic to lead to another. It is clear from the Scripture itself to me that Jesus spoke directly on man's inability to come to Him and believe in Him. And unless I misunderstood you, we are both agreed upon that point...he cannot and subsequently, will not, unless a prior act of God the Father.

Jesus goes on to describe this act of the Father both as "granting" and "giving" and "drawing" men to Jesus. I can't see how we can disagree on that either. It's the exact wording of the Scripture.

We then disagreed on whether this drawing/granting/giving could be resisted or rejected by the one the Father chose to give to Jesus. I showed from Scripture that Jesus said those whom the Father gives to Him shall come. Not maybe, might, possibly. It is certain. They will come. And they will come willingly. "...And who comes to me I will in no wise cast out..."

I also showed that the same ones Jesus describes as given to Him by the Father, who shall come, and will come, are the ones He will raise up at the last day and have everlasting life.

I then said that the Scripture is teaching basically:

1. The Father Elects
2. The Elect are drawn to Jesus
3. Jesus saves/redeems those whom the Father gives to Him and draws to Him.

I showed then how the non-cal/arminian view fall apart at the teaching of Scripture and is based on man's reasoning rather than the Word of God.

It falls apart because:

1. The Scripture knows nothing of those who are drawn/given to Jesus of these people, God's elect, ever being lost.

2. The argument from the arminina/non-cal side are based on man's own understanding of the nature and character of God as well as human reasoning with regard to ability and responsibility.

You have denied my point one here, and both you and Allen made the arguments in my point 2 here...which I anticipated in my OP.

I could go on to show from John 6 that those who are given to Jesus by the Father (election) and are drawn by the Father who shall come (effectual calling) and are the ones who come and believe, are also the ones in John 6 who are eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of Man. These have eternal life.

Final note:

As we all know, there are some who do believe in Jesus. Jesus knows, from the beginning, who they are that do not believe. It is for this reason that He says, "...no man can come to me except it were given unto him of my Father."

This in my view undoes the non-cal/arminian reasoning that election is God knowing who will and will not believe. This is not the teaching of the Scripture. The Scripture renders man unable to believe and come to Jesus. God knows who they are, believers and unbelievers. He knows because He knows who has been given to Him by the Father and who has not.

RB

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Acts 18:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.



That is not what it says. It does not say they were ordained to believe. It says they were ordained to eternal life.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You have to believe before God gives you the power to become the sons of God.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:11 shows Irresistable Grace error. It says he came unto "his own" and they received him not. How do you explain that? If Jesus owned them, how could they resist him?

And verse 12 shows you must first receive or believe on Jesus, and then God gives you the power (Holy Spirit) to become the sons of God.

It has been ordained that those who believe shall receive eternal life.

Actually, what Rippon (I think) wrote is pretty acurate. His statement makes the point, but I agree...it may be better said..:

"Those whom God as ordained to eternal life, believe."

It is not the other way around. What it does not say is that those who believe are ordained/appointed to eternal life. This is the non-cal/armin error/misunderstanding.

It is election first, then faith. The faith of a believer is not the spring or cause of their election, but rather, their election by God is the spring and cause of their faith.

Nor is it a foreknowledge that sees future faith and on that ground, elects. But rather, election is the cause and spring of future faith.

If you read the verses in John 1 that you quoted they say:

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


We cannot isolate verse 12 from 13 or verse 13 from 12. To do so, in my opion, creates two different errors.

1. To isolate verse 12 from 13 creates the error you describe: Choice/receiving is the cause of salvation.

2. To isolate verse 13 from 12 creates the error of hyper-calvinism. Hyper-calvinism beign defined at highlighting the sovereignty of God to the exclusion or negation of man's responsibiliy to repent and believe.

 

[Winman]

We then disagreed on whether this drawing/granting/giving could be resisted or rejected by the one the Father chose to give to Jesus. I showed from Scripture that Jesus said those whom the Father gives to Him shall come. Not maybe, might, possibly. It is certain. They will come. And they will come willingly. "...And who comes to me I will in no wise cast out..."

I know you addressed this to Allan, but I would like to comment. You argue that no person can resist the drawing of God. But I have clearly shown scripture that shows you can. In fact, there are many verses of scripture that show this.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

I think it is very easy to see here that the king represents God the Father. And he is inviting people to the wedding of his son Jesus. These people referred to here are the Jews. Jesus first came to the Jews.

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matt 22:3-7 shows that the Jews were called and bidden to the wedding. I don't know how you can dismiss this very clear teaching. It was God's will they come to him (vs. 4), and he sent servants to call them (the prophets).

But they refused. They would not come. They resisted God's drawing or calling.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

You can claim all day that those who are drawn by God cannot resist, the scriptures show just the opposite many times.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

So, you can hold to your belief if you choose, but the scriptures show multiple times that a man can resist and refuse the calling and drawing of God and the Holy Spirit himself.

 

[Winman]

Actually, what Rippon (I think) wrote is pretty acurate. His statement makes the point, but I agree...it may be better said..:

"Those whom God as ordained to eternal life, believe."

Amazing. You are actually arguing that the word of God should be changed to accomodate your belief.

First of all, I do not know of anyone who is ordained to any office not having to meet certain conditions or requirements first. I am not Catholic, but I hardly believe they ordain a priest without meeting certain requirements first.

And it is the same with election. We did not make Obama President and then vote for him afterwards. No, first Obama had to successfully win the Electoral College. And when he did he became the President-Elect.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Matt 22:3-7 shows that the Jews were called and bidden to the wedding. I don't know how you can dismiss this very clear teaching. It was God's will they come to him (vs. 4), and he sent servants to call them (the prophets).

Winman,

Thanks for trying to make your point. You assumed, or maybe thought you had the advantage, that I was ignoring your previous posts to this regard. And you were certain to say so! lol

I will not say that you have ignored most of my reply in your reply to me here. Nor have I thought your point was invalid. I wanted to treat John 6 completely before moving on to the wider context of the Scriptures.

What I am saying is this. When seeking to understand John 6, there is nothing wrong with using other Scripture to interpret Scripture where the Scripture may be in a certain place unclear to us.

I do not find that to be the case with John 6..but maybe another does. But when we are seeking to understand a verse or portion of text we should begin to contextualize the verse or passage. What I mean is, we start with its immediate context then move out. If John 6:44 is our focuse, for example, then (to picture this) John 6:44 is the center of our circle, and we begin to move out to gain the context. John 6:44 moving out might be a few verses before and after, then the chapter (if the separations make sense, and they dont always) then the preceding and following chapters, then John, then the GOspel, then the New Testament.. et. et.

We only need to go as far as we need to get the context of the verse or verses we are examining.

When something like John 6 challenges our thinking...it is right and good to look at other Scripture, like Matthew, to bring light into the passage(s) we are examing. Our goal is always to take our understanding and doctrine from the text itself and let it speak to us, rather than bring our understanding to the text and speak to it.

And this is what internet jocks accuse each other of alot. You not exegeting the text! Your reading your own theology into the text! And other such whiney things we say. lol We need a cheese icon to offer others and ourselves when we go down this road.

I had thoughts to really exegete Matt 22 and look it in light of what is happening and the parable itself. But rather, let me first directly address your concerns.

First, no one (I would hope) would seek to dismiss any Scripture. To say that I am is either unjust or just poor argumentation. Jesus' ministry (earthly) was to the lost sheep. Does sheep mean every single Jew? Or is He referring to the elect? I think He is referring to the elect. Jesus comes to seek and save the lost. How is one lost unless he was once not lost? He must of had his way before...or being "lost" doesn't make sense.

We can see this as election before all eternity. God the Father chose a people in Christ before the world began. Jesus came to seek and save the lost...and lost sheep of the house of Israel. And other sheep Jesus has, He said, that were not of that fold (Israel), them also He must bring (Gentiles).

Picking up in our text:

8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14For many are called, but few are chosen.

Obviously there is allegory here. A wedding..a feast..et. And this is likened to the Kingdom of God...the kingdom of God may be likened to...

I think:

1. The King is God the Father
2. The Son is the Son of Man/GOd.
3. The Wedding is the marriage supper of the Lamb.
4. The servants are the ministers of the Gospel
5. The bidding to come to the feast is the preaching of the Gospel to all nations, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. This preaching started with Jesus', carried on by the Apostles, and has gone into the whole world (highways and byways).
6. The wedding garment is the righteousness of Christ.
7. The elect receive the wedding garment, not everyone who is called.

What this shows me is that this is speaking of the worldwide preaching of the Gospel. The servants of God preach the Gospel to every creature and call them to Jesus Christ, to repent and believe.

Looking at this passage and comparing with John 6, it is apparent to me that while the topics are similiar, they are speaking of different things. Matt 22 is using a parable to speak about the Jews' rejection of the Gospel and not submitting to the righteousness of God in Christ, and the Gospel being preached in all the world.

John 6 is about the Jews reason for not believing and coming to Jesus, which is because they are not Jesus' sheep. Jesus' sheep hear His voice, and follow Him. Those who are not His sheep do not.

They did not believe because they were not His sheep. As another on these boards pointed out, its NOT that they are not sheep because they did not believe, but what Jesus said, they did not believe becasue they are not His sheep.

So, my conclusion is that Matt 22 provides great light on John 6, but does not teach contrary to it...of course.

In fact, what we can walk away with is:

1. God's elect will be saved and come and believe.
2. The Gospel will be preached to all people, elect and non-elect alike.
3. Those who do not posses the imputed righteousness of Christ will be lost.

These two texts are also clear biblical support for what many in the past and present describe as an internal and external call. Many are called (externally) but few are chosen (God's elect).

RB

 

[Carico]

And it is the same with election. We did not make Obama President and then vote for him afterwards. No, first Obama had to successfully win the Electoral College. And when he did he became the President-Elect.

And he did that because as Romans 13;1 explains, it's God who establishes the governing authorities on earth. So no earthly authority is in office by his own free will.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Amazing. You are actually arguing that the word of God should be changed to accomodate your belief.

First of all, I do not know of anyone who is ordained to any office not having to meet certain conditions or requirements first. I am not Catholic, but I hardly believe they ordain a priest without meeting certain requirements first.

And it is the same with election. We did not make Obama President and then vote for him afterwards. No, first Obama had to successfully win the Electoral College. And when he did he became the President-Elect.

Please demonstrate how I am making the Scripture say something that it is not. God's election of sinners to salvation is not a process that works like our electoral process in the United States.

The Scriptures teach that as many as were ordained to eternal life (salvation) believed. It does not say that as many as believed were ordained to eternal life.

The non-cal/arminian error teaches the latter, and actually what is contrary to the Scripture. It is a perverted form of election. In comes out of the pulpits by telling men that they have to but make a simple easy choice and receive Jesus and all is well with their soul.

This is not what the Scripture is saying. It teaches that God ordains men to salvation, and these are the ones who believe.

The Scripture also teaches why God elects: Because it seemed good to Him to do so.

That is a Sovereign. A Sovereign does what He wills because He wills to do it. I am not saying God does things on a whim, but He does all things according to His good pleasure and purpose which He purposed in HIMSELF from all eternity. This is the exact teaching of Ephesians 1.

 

[Winman]

1. The King is God the Father
2. The Son is the Son of Man/GOd.
3. The Wedding is the marriage supper of the Lamb.
4. The servants are the ministers of the Gospel
5. The bidding to come to the feast is the preaching of the Gospel to all nations, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. This preaching started with Jesus', carried on by the Apostles, and has gone into the whole world (highways and byways).
6. The wedding garment is the righteousness of Christ.
7. The elect receive the wedding garment, not everyone who is called.

You were doing good until you got to #7. In the parable of the wedding, God clearly makes the man responsible for having a wedding garment.

Matt 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

It is clear that the king (God the Father) was angry at this man for coming to the wedding without the proper garment, which we both agree is the garment of righteousness imputed to those who believe.

The parable of the wedding shows that a man can be called or drawn of God and refuse. It also shows that some can come, but not be saved. The pews of churches are full of people who come and hear the word of God every week, but never personally trust Christ as their saviour.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

We see here that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, logically if someone does not enter the kingdom of heaven they did not obey the will of God. And that is further explained in vs 24 (and doeth them) and vs 26 (and doeth them not). The Bible clearly shows man can disobey God's will.

And notice these unsaved folks claimed works. They had cast out devils and done many wonderful works. You can be religious, you can do good works, but you must trust Christ to be saved.

And I don't know how to make you understand, but nowhere in the scriptures does it say that those who are drawn are not able to resist this drawing. I gave Rippon the example of fishing. You can hook a fish and start drawing it in, but the fish can fight and resist and get away. I think it is interesting that Jesus told his disciples that he would make them fishers of men. I don't know of any fisherman who catches every fish he hooks.

But understand this. Those who do not resist, those who come were drawn by the Father. They did not come without first being called and drawn by the Holy Spirit and the scriptures.

That's how I got saved. I heard the preaching of the word of God. The preacher preached on Hell which terrified me. He then preached how Jesus died for me and took all my sins and that if I would trust Jesus as my saviour I would be saved. I remember it just like it happened yesterday, although it was 45 years ago. I'm telling you, I was drawn by that message. I was convicted. I almost ran down at the invitation to accept Jesus.

Had I not gone to church that day and heard God's word, who knows what might have happened to me? I might be unsaved to this day and on my way to Hell.

And when I believed, God the Father gave me to Jesus his Son.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

And when I believed, God the Father gave me to Jesus his Son.

Ok, so we are going to type to one another and disagree. That is fine.

The way which I understand the Scripture is different. You say when you believed the Father gave you to Jesus.

I believe the Scripture teaches that the Father gave you to Jesus, and so you believed.

 

[Winman]

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

OK, we need to find out what the "it" is in John 6:65

The answer was given a few verses earlier.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The "it" in verse 65 is the Word of God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

OK, we need to find out what the "it" is in John 6:65

The answer was given a few verses earlier.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The "it" in verse 65 is the Word of God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I am not completely clear on the point your trying to make, but I think your mistaken on what is being referred to here. Let me explain:

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jesus reminded His hearers of something He said previously..."therefore I said unto you.." What did he previously say unto them?

verse 44

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Therefore, we have to conclude that the "it" is the drawing granted by the Father to come to Jesus.

 

[Winman]

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

How can a man be drawn without first hearing the word of God?

Were you just walking around one day and the gospel was revealed to you by a miracle of God? Even Paul on the road to Damascus the Lord spoke to him.

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

You will always see in scripture that a man first hears the word of God. Here, Jesus spoke to Paul and asked why Paul persecuted him. Now, Paul does not seem to be quite honest here and asks who it is speaking to him. But Paul knew who he was persecuting. He was present when Stephen was stoned, and he was placing Christians under arrest. His trip to Damascus was to capture Christians who had fled there to escape him.

So, there was still a little resistance going on here in my opinion. But when Jesus clearly said who he was, Paul quit resisting and asked what the Lord would have him do.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

How can a man be drawn without first hearing the word of God?

Were you just walking around one day and the gospel was revealed to you by a miracle of God? Even Paul on the road to Damascus the Lord spoke to him.

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

You will always see in scripture that a man first hears the word of God. Here, Jesus spoke to Paul and asked why Paul persecuted him. Now, Paul does not seem to be quite honest here and asks who it is speaking to him. But Paul knew who he was persecuting. He was present when Stephen was stoned, and he was placing Christians under arrest. His trip to Damascus was to capture Christians who had fled there to escape him.

So, there was still a little resistance going on here in my opinion. But when Jesus clearly said who he was, Paul quit resisting and asked what the Lord would have him do.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

No one is denying or trying negate the means. My reply to you was simply to point out that Jesus was referring to something He previously said. And it is simply that no one comes to Jesus except it is given to that person by the Father, who draws them.

The means by which God does this is the preaching of the Gospel.

Yet, and I think you agree, not everyone who hears believes unto the saving of their soul. And we can look at Scripture with regard to how the Kingdom of God works in the sowing of seeds.

Yet we ought not to forget the why for the how.

 

[Winman]

I have to leave for work in a minute, but the whole conversation in John 6 is about Jesus's words or teachings. He had just told people that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood to be saved. The people remarked,

"this is an hard saying; who can hear it?"

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jesus asked, "Doth this offend you?" What is Jesus talking about? His words.

The whole subject is the words and teachings Jesus is giving them.

Then Jesus tells them his words are spirit and life. But you must receive Jesus's words for them to be effectual for you. If you refuse to sincerely hear and believe Jesus's words they will not save you. But if you are saved, it is because God first sent his Son Jesus to reveal his word to us. So you cannot be saved without the word of God.

1 Thess 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

No one knows of God or Jesus without the scriptures. But you must receive God's word and believe them for them to effectually work in you.

Gotta go. I should be back tomorrow.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I have to leave for work in a minute, but the whole conversation in John 6 is about Jesus's words or teachings. He had just told people that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood to be saved. The people remarked,

"this is an hard saying; who can hear it?"

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jesus asked, "Doth this offend you?" What is Jesus talking about? His words.

The whole subject is the words and teachings Jesus is giving them.

Then Jesus tells them his words are spirit and life. But you must receive Jesus's words for them to be effectual for you. If you refuse to sincerely hear and believe Jesus's words they will not save you. But if you are saved, it is because God first sent his Son Jesus to reveal his word to us. So you cannot be saved without the word of God.

1 Thess 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

No one knows of God or Jesus without the scriptures. But you must receive God's word and believe them for them to effectually work in you.

Gotta go. I should be back tomorrow.

Again, no one is denying recieving and believing the Word of God.

Hope you have a great day at work.

 

[Carico]

Again, no one is denying recieving and believing the Word of God.

Hope you have a great day at work.

Jeremiah would have preferred not to have been born as he says in Jer. 20:14-18 than to have the calling that God gave him and in fact, determined before him before he was even born. But as he says in Jer. 20:7, God overpowered him and of course, prevailed since the Holy Spirit is the strongest power that exists.

So no, Jeremiah didn't freely choose to believe God because no one can resist God because again, God's gifts and his call are irrevocable as Romans 11:29 says and Jeremiah knew.

 

[Winman]

Jeremiah would have preferred not to have been born as he says in Jer. 20:14-18 than to have the calling that God gave him and in fact, determined before him before he was even born. But as he says in Jer. 20:7, God overpowered him and of course, prevailed since the Holy Spirit is the strongest power that exists.

So no, Jeremiah didn't freely choose to believe God because no one can resist God because again, God's gifts and his call are irrevocable as Romans 11:29 says and Jeremiah knew.

Carico, you do not know the scriptures. I just posted many verses where the Bible shows a man can indeed resist God.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Stephen, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said these Jews resisted the Holy Spirit and the word of God. And look what they did.

Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Acts 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

These Jews understood Stephen, they simply hated the message he told them. It made them so angry that they gnashed their teeth, cried aloud, stopped their ears and rushed upon him. Then they dragged him out of the city and stoned him to death.

And this is a very common reaction. Tell a person the word of God who does not want to hear it, and watch how angry they become. It is not that they cannot hear it, they do not WANT to hear it.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Carico, you do not know the scriptures. I just posted many verses where the Bible shows a man can indeed resist God.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Stephen, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said these Jews resisted the Holy Spirit and the word of God. And look what they did.

Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Acts 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

These Jews understood Stephen, they simply hated the message he told them. It made them so angry that they gnashed their teeth, cried aloud, stopped their ears and rushed upon him. Then they dragged him out of the city and stoned him to death.

And this is a very common reaction. Tell a person the word of God who does not want to hear it, and watch how angry they become. It is not that they cannot hear it, they do not WANT to hear it.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

So what makes a difference between these hearers and the one's in Acts 2?

What makes those men to differ?

 

[Winman]

So what makes a difference between these hearers and the one's in Acts 2?

What makes those men to differ?

There are many reasons people reject the word of God, and this is obvious to all of us. Some people simply enjoy living a sinful lifestyle. They want to continue to live in sin, and they do not like the word of God that exposes them as sinners.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Some people are proud, especially religious people. They believe themselves good, better than others. They do not want to hear that they are sinners.

Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

You see here the Pharisee was very proud. He thought himself a true man of God, righteous and much better than the sinful publican. But Jesus said that every one that exalteth himself shall be abased.

Jesus also said that the Pharisees who loved honor, could not believe.

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

It is not that these Pharisee are unable to believe, but it is because they loved honour. They loved the great prestige they were given, being given the best seats at feasts, praying in the streets in the sight of men...

The Pharisees were exceedingly proud. They loved to believe themselves righteous and better than other men. They would not keep company with anyone they thought a sinner. They rebuked Jesus for eating with sinners.

Matt 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

This is why the Pharisees could not believe, they were proud and could not admit to themselves that they were sinners just like everyone else.

 

[WITBOTL]

Hi Winman,

Wow! I agree with you. Except you didn't really answer the question. It is the same question I asked in a different thread. What is the difference. At some point in the equation there is something which differentiates the man who will be saved from the man who rejects God.... It is easy to see Scripturally why men reject God but what is different in the man who accepts God? Is the difference something God did, or is it something that that man did?

My argument is that at the crossroad upon which the one man takes the path to righteousness and the other to destruction that it is God who makes the difference between those two men and not man. I'm sure you understand this position even if you do not agree with it. But if you don't agree with it then are you arguing that it is something IN that man who is saved that differentiates him from the other? If so then does he not have something outside of Christ to glory in his salvation because while Christ did the lions share of the work it is indeed man who tipped the balance of his soul in favour of his own eternal life?