Wrong...Baptism does not save. The answer of a good conscious having been born of the Spirit, saves
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Question for Baptists
- Thread starter Mur
- Start date
Don’t forget the water mate.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
Hello cathode, The water in jn 3 is not Christian baptism. Nicodemus was the teacher in Israel, an OT.Jew.
jn 3 is speaking of the water of separation; num.19:9 And a man that is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and lay them up without the camp in a clean place, and it shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for a water of separation: it is a purification for sin.
21 And it shall be a perpetual statute unto them, that he that sprinkleth the water of separation shall wash his clothes; and he that toucheth the water of separation shall be unclean until even.
ezk36:
So Scripture is wrong?
“ Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
So you are saying that your sins aren’t forgiven at Baptism and you don’t receive the gift of The Holy Spirit at Baptism.
Thanks for showing me how wrong Scripture is, I appreciate it.
Cathode, we Baptists argue about many things but water baptism is not one of them.
You don’t believe in Baptism for the forgiveness of sins ? Or that you receive The Holy Spirit at Baptism.?
How do you reconcile Peter’s teaching, cos it doesn’t fit your theology?
Baptism is the work of The Holy Spirit.
It is not washing dirt off the body, it is The Holy Spirit cleaning the Soul.
That's right!
I believe in believers baptism as a symbol of the baptism that saved me.
I believe we receive the Holy Spirit as Paul said in Eph. 1:13.
@Cathode
You really need to understand what Paul was talking about In Acts 19:1-7, when he asked those 12 men if they had received the Holy Spirit since they believed. I'll explain it for you, bear with me.
Acts 19:1-7
"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve."
Paul was asking them if they had received the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues, since they believed.
They had been baptized by John but did not understand what it was. So Paul told them it was a baptism of repentance that they should believe on the Messiah who was to come, Jesus Christ.
They believed what Paul said and were water baptized again, this time in believers baptism now believing in Jesus Christ.
Then Paul laid his hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues, which is what Paul originally asked them to begin with.
"Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed."
Do you understand this, Cathode?
I understand.
This is Baptism and Confirmation. In both cases it is a sacramental reception of The Holy Spirit.
I have been to these before for mature adults, they get Baptised and Confirmed at the same time, water Baptism followed by the laying on of hands, Confirmation.
What normally happened in the Church for the first 1500 years, was that infants were baptised with their parents making the profession of faith for them. But when they reached the age of maturity to understand, they made their own adult profession of Faith and were confirmed through the laying on of hands.
Confirmation is like believers Baptism a mature personal profession of Faith. Generally done at 12 to 13 years of age today.
The men that Paul was talking to were Baptised and Confirmed at the same time because they were adults obviously, making a mature personal profession of Faith right off the bat.
Below the age of reason, parents have spiritual authority over their children as we see in circumcision on the 8th day, the parents made the pledges and answered for the infant to be spiritually included into God’s people Israel.
Infants were not excluded from spiritual inclusion into the Church or Israel because they were below the age of reason. This was a heresy that began in the 1500-1600s.
The bar mitzvah was the Jewish Confirmation, where they make a spiritually mature pledge and have spiritual responsibility for himself to follow the commandments. This takes place at 12-13 years as well.
So the Church always Baptised infants, the Fathers confirm it as a universal practice, as at Nicaea, which was all the Church bishops gathered from around the Christian world at the time.
Baptism was always seen as Regeneration.
Baptism was given to Infants.
Baptism for the forgiveness of sins, as stated in scripture.
Baptism to receive The gift of The Holy Spirit, also stated in Scripture.
Traditions of men, totally ignoring Scripture!
Col. 2:8
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
The problem is, you are following the tradition of men, namely Ulrich Zwingli the false Apostle of symbolic baptism, a false gospel doctrine.
The entire Christian world for the first 1500 years believed Universally in Water Baptismal Regeneration including the first reformers Luther and Calvin.
Infant Baptism was universal, all the oldest Apostolic Churches East and West all practiced it, and still do.
Baptismal Regeneration is the majority Christian belief today.
Zwingli separated you from universal Christian doctrine by his erroneous interpretations of scripture, and you probably don’t even know it.
This is why heretics like Ulrich Zwingli are so dangerous, they rob future generations of saving Christian doctrines, and these don’t even realise it.
Every heretic appeals to scripture to support his novel heresies, Zwingli was just but one whose errors metastasised, and those that followed Zwingli interpreted more errors falsely appealing to scripture, and a tradition of men was born.
If you want Zwingli for your Apostle, go right ahead. But the Church Universal has already established true doctrine from the Apostles long ago.
I gave you the scripture teaching, remember I left out the Fathers and for your sake only quoted the Scripture on Baptism. You wouldn’t have it.
The Fathers are overwhelming, they quote Scripture exclusively to mean Water Baptism being Regeneration “ being born again “.
All “ Bible alone “ denominations are traditions of men, all started by human founders, who all interpret their own novel doctrines from scripture.
These a genuine traditions of men all with human founders.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.- 1 Corinthians 1
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.- 1 Corinthians 1
Hey, Buddy, put a hold on the sarcasm for a minute, and ask your questions. This will go better if you do that.
1} The Holy Spirit alone brings a dead sinner to Spiritual life. Ezk36:25-27
2] Spirit baptism is put to the account of sinners given a new heart already when they repent and believe.13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
3] Water baptism does not save. No work that we do saves us. Spirit Baptsim places a believing sinner into saving union with Christ.
The scripture teaching on water baptism is, that it is an outward confession, a public confession, to the inner working of the Spirit that has already taken place. The verse in 1 Pet 3 says,,,not the putting away of the filth of the flesh{in water}, but rather, the answer of a clear conscience toward God.
4] This is the consistent pattern shown in the NT. ordinance of baptism
5] No where do you have the false artificial construct of so called "God parents" renouncing Satan, and vowing to help the infant grow in the faith. Not one verse on that.
6] Then afterwards, communion and confirmation??? Not found in scripture that way.
Sure. Agreed.
Which is what happens at Baptism.
“and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”
Baptism does save us as Scripture clearly states, and it’s effects are spiritual clearing the conscience which is of the soul. IE your sins are forgiven.
This fits perfectly with.
“ Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
So Scripture clearly teaches.
Baptism saves us. Saying otherwise is unscriptural.
Baptism is for the forgiveness of our sins. Saying otherwise is unscriptural.
At Baptism you receive the gift of The Holy Spirit. Saying otherwise is unscriptural.
You have got to realise Catholics are pre Bible Christianity, our Church isn’t founded on the Bible, our Church is founded by Christ on the Apostles, we preserved the scriptures from the Apostles and Canonised the first Bible.
We aren’t like the human founded institutions in Bible alonism beginning in the 1500s, trying to reconstruct churches and doctrines by subjective human interpretations of Scripture, they having nothing to do with the Bible in the first place, and having no agreement among themselves. To us, these are false artificial constructs, all traditions of men to our eyes.
Catholics only have one singular objective interpretation of Scripture handed down from the Apostles, the Apostles interpretation of Scripture. All we do is preserve that, we have never been allowed interpret scripture according to each man’s opinion like Bible alonism does.
Tens of thousands of human founded, conflicting traditions of men in Bible alonism proves it’s a bad idea.
I’m sorry mate, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit as someone said. I’ve been trying to cut back, especially on Wednesday’s.
Here is a link that goes into detail:
I am well aware that baptism is NOT washing physical dirt of the body.