Question for Calvinist & Arminians

[EPH 1:4]

I would like to know what both groups believe about HEBREWS 8:11.And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

 

[russell55]

This is the way God's people are under the new covenant. Everyone of His people has a circumcised heart, with God's laws written on their hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit. Under the new covenant, all of God's people are true believers--every single one of them.

God's people under the old covenant--the physical nation of Israel, those born physically into Israel--had a problem with unfaithfulness. They were not all true believers, and so many were disobedient.

This is a way the new covenant is better than the old. The new covenant is entered by being spiritually reborn, and this spiritual rebirth makes new creatures--creatures who know the Lord and love Him faithfully. Each one under the new covenant is taught by the Spirit.

BTW, I am a Calvinist.....

 

[Ray Berrian]

Hebrews 8:7 speaks of the Old Covenant--Law and the New Covenant--Grace. Two covenants--The author says there will be a time when He will dismiss both of the above. (verse 8a). Notice He says that 'I will find fault with THEM.

Verse 9-12 God is speaking of a time--the Kingdom Age, 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth when people will all know our Lord Jesus. Romans 11:26 indicates that in this future time all Israel will be united under one faith.

Vs. 25 Now Israel is only partially blind; then they will see correctly.

Vs. 24 The Israelites, in the future, will be grafted in again into the Olive Tree.

Within Hebrews 8:6-8 you will find three covenants. Check it out!

I am a Four Point Arminian and a Dispensationalist.

 

[rlvaughn]

Eph., I agree with Russell. This is speaking of the new (testament) covenant. Under the old covenant, the "people of God" (Israel) was made up of believers, children of believers, unbelievers, etc.. Not so under the new covenant - it is made up of people who "know the Lord, from the least to the greatest." This is the spiritual seed of Abraham. There are no unbelievers (or children of believers) that make up this people.

Since every else did - I am a no-point arminian, non-dispensationalist, sovereign grace believer who doesn't prefer to be called a Calvinist, currently attending Absolute Predestinarian churches.

 

[Ray Berrian]

rivaughn,

I'll eat my Lap Top computer, if you can't see three covenants in those verses. Because He found ' . . . fault with them . . . ' [Hebrews 8:6-12], indicates that God will one day be through with even the New Covenant of grace and He will bring in, again, the people of national Israel. Why do you think the author speaks not in general terms but pin points ' . . . the House of Israel and with the House of Judah?'

Vs. 11 says everyone will know the Lord in that day. This verse clearly is not speaking of our godless age.

Let the light shine in . . .

Ray Berrian, Th.D.

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I'll eat my Lap Top computer, if you can't see three covenants in those verses.

Well, it's gonna be a late supper, Ray, cause I can't see three covenants in those verses. You did say you (meaning me), not I (meaning you).

Seriously though, Ray, he keeps talking throughout the context of first & second, old & new (never mentioning a third or newer?, newest? covenant), making interpreting "them" as a third covenant seem a little forced to me. What fault did the first covenant have? What fault does the new covenant have? I tend to think that "them" means the people of the old covenant, though I am not dogmatic about it.

I didn't say that everyone in our godless age knows the Lord - just every member of the new covenant of grace. I'm wondering if you think the "third" covenant applies to the millennium? If so, do you think everyone in that age will "know the Lord?"

 

[russell55]

Notice He says that 'I will find fault with THEM.

Not exactly.....

...finding fault with them [not future tense!], He says, "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord.... "

Whatever the "them" is that God is finding fault with, He was already finding fault with them back in the days of Jeremiah. He was specifically finding fault with them when He says these words:

Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, When I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and With the house of Judah; Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers On the day when I took them by the hand To lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they did not continue in My covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord.

What is the them God is finding fault with in this quote? Is it not the them that did not continue in His covenant, the them He didn't care for, otherwise known as His old covenant people?

Why do you think the author speaks not in general terms but pin points ' . . . the House of Israel and with the House of Judah?'

Well, whoever the house of Israel and the house of Judah are, this promise of a new covenant in Jeremiah was being fulfilled even as the writer of Hebrews was writing his book. The old covenant was, at that very time, passing away and becoming obsolete, and the new was taking its place:

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

[ July 24, 2002, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

[pinoybaptist]

Dont forget tomatoes and onions, sauted, Ray, with a sprinkiling of a little sugar (preferably brown)! Your laptop will taste really good in the chewing.

 

[Ray Berrian]

rivaughn,

Yes, I do believe that the third covenant, the one which will follow the New Covenant of Grace will be in force during the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth. [Zechariah 14:16] In that time the Israelites will see Him in Jerusalem. Would you not change your mind if you were an Israelite living in the future? 'All Israel shall be saved.' The Apostle Paul was speaking of a future day--different than His lifetime. [Romans 11:26]

As Zechariah says, there will be people in Egypt, those who are predominately Muslim who will still reject Him. And notice He takes action against them for refusing to come to Jerusalem to worship Him in the Millennial Temple.

 

[KenH]

Ray,

Just curious. If Christ is reigning as the glorious King of kings for 1000 years, how can there be a rebellion at the end of 1000 years? If you believe that can happen, then could a rebellion also still occur after the 1000 years are over? If not, why not?

Ken

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
...As Zechariah says, there will be people in Egypt, those who are predominately Muslim, who will still reject Him...

Ray, I guess this is the main part that leaves me confused about your applying this to the future millennium. I took it from your previous quote

Vs. 11 says everyone will know the Lord in that day. This verse clearly is not speaking of our godless age.

that you think that everyone will then know the Lord; and conversely, that since everyone today does not know the Lord, then this can't be referring to our present covenant of grace. But I understand that it is a general teaching of dispensational premillennialism that there are lost people living throughout the millennium. So I am confused as to how you make this judgement call. Furthermore, I would feel that you are putting up the four letter word "them" in 8:8 against the entire tenor and theme of the book of Hebrews - that the (one present and future) new covenant is better in every way than the first and old covenant.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken Hamilton,

When the 1,000 years is completed Satan will be 'loosed a little season.' [Revelation 20:3] He will be in Hell for that time when the Millennial reign is going on in the earth. When released, He, meaning the Devil, will go out to again deceive the nations. [Rev. 20:8] The pagan nations will surround Jerusalem vs. 9 and God will send fire from Heaven to destroy the armies of this world.

 

[KenH]

Interesting. Complicated, but interesting.

Makes me that much more eager to start reading the four books I bought on postmillennialism.

Ken

[ July 24, 2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken Hamilton,

I'm glad you are reading books on eschatology. It never hurts any of us to be informed as to what other people believe. It is very interesting to me.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Hebrews 8:7 speaks about the two covenants. Law and Grace . . . Then, the author of the book immediately tells us that there will be a future covenant because he says, that the Lord will find fault with them. He is not talking about people but Covenants. In Romans 11:27 the Apostle Paul speaks not of a covenant of Law or Grace but one in which He will take away the sins of the Israelites.

Jeremiah 31:31 is a prophecy of Israel's restoration as saved persons and as a nation. Vs. 34 is a duplication of what God is saying will happen during the Millinimum. God has made an 'everlasting covenant' with Israel [Genesis 17:7] meaning that He will never and has never fully thrown them out as pagan nations. Israel is His land and it was given to His people, the Israelites. [Genesis 17:8c,d,e] [Genesis 12:7].

The Valley of Dry Bones written about in Ezekiel 37 is about the spiritual restoration of His people, the Israelities, during the future Millennial time. They will come alive spiritually speaking because no where under the Old Covenant does it say that His people {the laity} were indwelled by the Spirit. You will, however, find that He will indwell the Jews in the Millenimum because it is documented in Ezekiel 37:14. In that day they will dwell safely in their land, the territory of Israel.

 

[russell55]

Then, the author of the book immediately tells us that there will be a future covenant because he says, that the Lord will find fault with them.

Where does it say the Lord will find fault with them? Where does it put this into the future?

He is not talking about people but Covenants.

I find it really hard to buy that God is going to find any sort of fault in the better covenant mediated by Christ.....

 

[Ray Berrian]

russell55,

You should not find it hard to buy . . .

Christ was the Author also of the Old Covenant economy. The New Covenant system was an improvement. [Hebrews 8:7] The first covenant was ineffectual. {not faultless}

The Hebrew Christians were already living under the New Covenant of grace and yet the author says there will be a day coming, because these are still flawed, [vs.8] that He will yet make a covenant with the House of Israel and Judah. This will be the promised Millennial Age of 1,000 years where Christ will rule over the entire world. All the Israelites in that day will know the Lord. Sounds much better to me than the present behavior of the Jews toward Jesus.

Note: 'He, God will find fault with them.' [Heb. 8:8] Check translations or better yet the Greek and you will see the same thing, a future covenant beyond Grace and after the coming of the Lord for His church.

 

[russell55]

Note: 'He, God will find fault with them.' [Heb. 8:8] Check translations or better yet the Greek and you will see the same thing,

Here is the point I am trying to make: You keep saying that the text says "God will find fault with them," but that's not what it says. That is a misreading of the verb tense. It is not "will find", but rather "finding".

The Hebrew Christians were already living under the New Covenant

They are in a period of transition from the old to the new. To get them to complete the transition is the whole point of Hebrews.

yet the author says there will be a day coming

Nah....the author quotes Jeremiah, who says there will be a day coming. The author of Hebrews says this day is now:

But now...He is the mediator of a better covenant...

When He said, "A new covenant ,"(a direct quote from verse 8) He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

The author of Hebrews says that the first covenant has already, at the time of his writing, been made obsolete. It is ready to disappear. Why? Because the new covenant promised in verse 8 has already been put into effect by the death of Christ.

 

[tyndale1946]

Ray said:

When the 1,000 years is completed Satan will be 'loosed a little season.

... Well Ray I also study Eschatology and anyone that doesn't think Satan has been loosed a little season already is not looking at the same world I'm looking at!... But you interpret it your way and I will mine! Now as far as the original question we seem to have gotten off topic again. Jeremiah 31:31-34 was the prophecy given and Hebrews 8:11 was the fulfillment. One was the Old Covenant... That they couldn't keep and a New Covenant was written in their hearts and minds by God... giving them the ability to keep it!... Not because of anything they had done but because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ who became the New Covenant... We are not under the law... the old covenant but are now under grace... the new!... Brother Glen

 

[Ray Berrian]

Tyndale1946,

Satan has been loosed since the Garden of Eden; he caused the Fall in the Garden.

He will yet be bound during the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth.

He will be loosed after the 1,000 year era has come to and end.