Question for Calvinists

[James_Newman]

Do you vote?

Romans 13:1
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Yes. But I fail to see how involvement in a government process that is ordained by God is a problem for Calvinist.

Although I suppose you are trying to be funny, saying that if we are voting someone out of office we are going against someone who God has ordained be there. Oh, I get it.

One more time...God ordains not only the end, but also the means. It is that way with salvation. It is that way with government.

And another thing. This passage is not about involvement in the governing process. It is about obeying those who rule over you. If I am a law-abiding citizen, I am obeying this passage, calvinist or arminian.

 

[James_Newman]

So you believe that your vote has an effect on the outcome of an election? Or do you think that the outcome would be the same regardless of your interaction with the democratic process?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
So you believe that your vote has an effect on the outcome of an election? Or do you think that the outcome would be the same regardless of your interaction with the democratic process?

Are you asking if I understand the Constitutional role of the electoral college or are you asking how my view of God's sovereignty effects the rise and fall of governments throughout history?

If you are asking the first question, my vote only has an effect if I am the one vote that pushes the state in my particular direction. Even then, technically the voters from my state in the electoral college can go the other direction, although that is unheard of.

If you are asking the second question, I have already answered it. God ordains not only the ends, but also the means. You fail to see that there are primary causes and secondary causes in everything. George Bush got elected because more people voted for him than for John Kerry (secondary cause). George Bush got elected because God wanted him elected (primary cause).

 

[Calvibaptist]

To turn the question back on you...Do you really believe that the powers that exist are ordained by God? Because that is what it says. How does that play out for an Arminian who believes in man's total free-will? How do you interpret this verse in the context of your everyday life?

 

[partialrapture]

Clavibaptist you just admitted to both being true, free will and God's control
George Bush got elected because more people voted for him than for John Kerry (secondary cause). George Bush got elected because God wanted him elected (primary cause).

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James_Newman:
So you believe that your vote has an effect on the outcome of an election? Or do you think that the outcome would be the same regardless of your interaction with the democratic process?

Are you asking if I understand the Constitutional role of the electoral college or are you asking how my view of God's sovereignty effects the rise and fall of governments throughout history?

If you are asking the first question, my vote only has an effect if I am the one vote that pushes the state in my particular direction. Even then, technically the voters from my state in the electoral college can go the other direction, although that is unheard of.

If you are asking the second question, I have already answered it. God ordains not only the ends, but also the means. You fail to see that there are primary causes and secondary causes in everything. George Bush got elected because more people voted for him than for John Kerry (secondary cause). George Bush got elected because God wanted him elected (primary cause). </font>[/QUOTE]Presidents aside, think more locally. Your vote on an issue, does it matter? Whether or not yours is 'the one', does the turnout of voters depend on the outcome of the election, or is it the other way around? Do you vote because it is your responsibility to participate, or did you participate merely because your vote was required to affect the correct outcome of the election?

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
To turn the question back on you...Do you really believe that the powers that exist are ordained by God? Because that is what it says. How does that play out for an Arminian who believes in man's total free-will? How do you interpret this verse in the context of your everyday life?

Of course I believe that. How that plays out for an Arminian? I don't know, I am not one. In the context of my everyday life, I know that all things come from the hand of God, from the highest authority, to my landlord. But I believe that I have free will to choose to serve the Lord each day.

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Do you vote?

Romans 13:1
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Personally, I would not even consider not voting. I figger its yer license ta' gripe!

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by EdSutton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James_Newman:
Do you vote?

Romans 13:1
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Personally, I would not even consider not voting. I figger its yer license ta' gripe!

Ed </font>[/QUOTE]Wait a minute! I can't post this, bein'z I ain't a Calvinist! Or mebbe I can still, 'cause I ain't Arminian either!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
To turn the question back on you...Do you really believe that the powers that exist are ordained by God? Because that is what it says. How does that play out for an Arminian who believes in man's total free-will? How do you interpret this verse in the context of your everyday life?

If a man believes in “man’s total free will,” he is not an Arminian but a man who needs to read the Bible and believe what it says.

 

[Ransom]

James_Newman said:

So you believe that your vote has an effect on the outcome of an election? Or do you think that the outcome would be the same regardless of your interaction with the democratic process?

Do you believe that swinging a bat at a baseball has an effect on whether it will be hit? Or do you think that the ball will go out of the park regardless of your interaction with it?

Questions like yours seem to presuppose that Calvinists reject the laws of cause and effect. Voting is the cause: elected leaders is the effect. God ordains both.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by partialrapture:
Clavibaptist you just admitted to both being true, free will and God's control
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

George Bush got elected because more people voted for him than for John Kerry (secondary cause). George Bush got elected because God wanted him elected (primary cause). </font>[/QUOTE]NO. I just admitted to both man's will and God's control being true. I never admit to "free will" being true. The adjective "free" indicates that there is nothing outside of man that influences or constrains his will. The Bible denies this and so do I.

I, as a Calvinist, believe that men make choices all the time. John Calvin believed this. But those choices are not free of any outside influence or constraint. Our choices our bound by our sinful nature until God changes that.

Next time, before you think you've talked me into a corner, try to really understand what we believe the Bible says.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Presidents aside, think more locally. Your vote on an issue, does it matter? Whether or not yours is 'the one', does the turnout of voters depend on the outcome of the election, or is it the other way around? Do you vote because it is your responsibility to participate, or did you participate merely because your vote was required to affect the correct outcome of the election?

I see where you are going now. You are trying to equate the illustration of voting in an political election with choosing Christ for salvation.

I really can only give you one answer then: apples and oranges.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James_Newman:
So you believe that your vote has an effect on the outcome of an election? Or do you think that the outcome would be the same regardless of your interaction with the democratic process?

Are you asking if I understand the Constitutional role of the electoral college or are you asking how my view of God's sovereignty effects the rise and fall of governments throughout history?

If you are asking the first question, my vote only has an effect if I am the one vote that pushes the state in my particular direction. Even then, technically the voters from my state in the electoral college can go the other direction, although that is unheard of.

If you are asking the second question, I have already answered it. God ordains not only the ends, but also the means. You fail to see that there are primary causes and secondary causes in everything. George Bush got elected because more people voted for him than for John Kerry (secondary cause). George Bush got elected because God wanted him elected (primary cause). </font>[/QUOTE]So you're argueing that everything that happens is the will of God? I don't agree with that statement.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

This story about God's decision to cover the earth with the flood shows that He was grieved at the wickedness of man. Why should He be grieved if He knew that this was going to happen?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
So you're argueing that everything that happens is the will of God? I don't agree with that statement.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

This story about God's decision to cover the earth with the flood shows that He was grieved at the wickedness of man. Why should He be grieved if He knew that this was going to happen? [/QB]

Honestly, this is one of those things that I leave up to God to explain to us when we get to heaven. I know that sin is in the world. I know that God destroyed the world with a flood because of the sin that men chose. I also know that Eph. 1:11 says that He works all things according to the counsel of His will. All things must include sin.