Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Do you mean to say that there is not any instance in the Bible where God changed his mind about something due to the prayers of the righteous?
Joseph Botwinick
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Question for Calvinists
- Thread starter Joseph_Botwinick
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Joseph Botwinick
Calvibaptist
New Member
Do you mean to say that there is not any instance in the Bible where God changed his mind about something due to the prayers of the righteous?
Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]Yes. That is exactly what we mean. The Bible uses anthropomorphisms to try to explain how God works. God sometimes says He changes His mind, and from a human standpoint, it looks like He does. But how can His mind change if He already knows the end from the beginning?
You either have to deny God's foreknowledge and sovereignty, which are very clear in the Bible. Or you have to try to figure out what He means when the Bible says he didn't do what He said He was going to do.
Tom Butler
New Member
Joseph,it's a fair question. I'm sure you know that scripture interprets scripture, and some passages must be interpreted in the light of clear, unequivocal scripture on the subject.
For instance, in Numbers 23:19, Balaam (yep, that one) says "God is not a man that he should lie, nor a son of man thathe should change his mind."
That's pretty unequivocal.
So any scripture which speaks of God repenting or changing must be interpreted in the light of such passages as Numbers 23:19, James 1:17 ("..who does not change...").
On the other hand, I do accept that God has ordained that he will act in some instances in response to prayer. Hezekiah, for example.
My friend R. Charles Blair will recognize the following as having been stolen from him, so I credit him with the following:
"Did it ever occur to you that nothing ever occurs to God?"
Tom B.
For instance, in Numbers 23:19, Balaam (yep, that one) says "God is not a man that he should lie, nor a son of man thathe should change his mind."
That's pretty unequivocal.
So any scripture which speaks of God repenting or changing must be interpreted in the light of such passages as Numbers 23:19, James 1:17 ("..who does not change...").
On the other hand, I do accept that God has ordained that he will act in some instances in response to prayer. Hezekiah, for example.
My friend R. Charles Blair will recognize the following as having been stolen from him, so I credit him with the following:
"Did it ever occur to you that nothing ever occurs to God?"
Tom B.
Calvibaptist
New Member
I like that quote! I might borrow it, if you (and the person you got it from) doesn't mind.
God is not caught by surprise by any action of man. At the very least He foreknows what every man will choose with every little choice he makes, even whether to put his left sock on before his right in the morning.
Now, here's something to think about: If a choice is foreknown, that means it will definitely happen as foreknown, right? So, when the time comes that the choice is made, could that person choose differently?
For instance, God foreknows who will choose him (as free-willers interpret Romans 8:29). He then chooses them for salvation. When the time comes for that person to choose God, could that person change his mind and go to his grave rejecting God even though God forsaw that he would choose Him? If that is not possible, then the choice is NOT a free-will choice. It is a decision that has been made before he was ever born. The remaining question is, who made the choice? The only thing that existed when God foreknew was God, so God had to make the choice, thus unmerited election.
We arrive at Calvin's doctrine of unmerited election both Scripturally and by thinking through the logical conclusion of the free-willer's view.
Calvibaptist
New Member
I would agree with that Tom. I think that falls into the category of the primary cause being God (He has ordained that he will act in response to prayer) and the secondary cause being prayer. This does not mean that God had planned to do one thing and that because I prayed real hard, God considered what He was doing and saw that my way was better. That's ludricrous.
God said he was going to create a "New Earth", (Sovereign will)
and "WHOSOEVER" wanted to live there, "COULD"
"IF"
they believed in Jesus.
And in "declaring the end from the beginning",
God's "FOREKNOWLEDGE" revealed each person that "WOULD" chose to believe and each person that "would not",
God wasn't willing for any to perish, so Sovereign will quite obviously didn't determine those listed by "Foreknowledge" to live on the "New Earth".
I "think" we need a "Reading Comprehension 101" class before studying the Bible, either that or break all those "Rose colored Glasses".
Calvibaptist
New Member
Would you please stop bringing up the "whosoever" from John 3:16 that has nothing to do with universal offer of salvation? I've already dealt with the Greek in that verse at least twice to show you that it simply says, "all the believing ones." It does not say, "Everyone has the opportunity to believe."
I do agree with you, though, that the New Heavens and New Earth will only be populated by those who believe in Him. How do they come to believe, though?
Let me ask another question: Can you, by an act of your will, choose to believe something that you currently don't? For instance, you were raised to believe that pink elephants are fiction. Can you, by an act of your will, say, "I choose to believe in pink elephants?"
Concerning this question, this happened to me.
Ask by my pastor to offer an opening prayer at a meeting suddenly as I stood up, the Holy Spirit impressed on my mind everyone here is not saved so pray for people to be saved right now.After I began to prayed for conviction to come upon the lost that were among us I stopped praying. Eerie silence, for a period of time, was the result. Now the pastor who was a strong Christian said please turn to page so and so and as we were turning to that page 5 young people three men and two women came forward to the pastor and ask for prayer concerning salvation. Strange, mightbe, but nevertheless true.
Ask by my pastor to offer an opening prayer at a meeting suddenly as I stood up, the Holy Spirit impressed on my mind everyone here is not saved so pray for people to be saved right now.After I began to prayed for conviction to come upon the lost that were among us I stopped praying. Eerie silence, for a period of time, was the result. Now the pastor who was a strong Christian said please turn to page so and so and as we were turning to that page 5 young people three men and two women came forward to the pastor and ask for prayer concerning salvation. Strange, mightbe, but nevertheless true.
Would you please stop bringing up the "whosoever" from John 3:16 that has nothing to do with universal offer of salvation? I've already dealt with the Greek in that verse at least twice to show you that it simply says, "all the believing ones." It does not say, "Everyone has the opportunity to believe."
How do they come to believe, though?</font>[/QUOTE]And how do they come to not "believe" and God condemns "THEM" because "THEY" didn't believe,
Seems to me the "FAULT" is "GOD"S", for not giving them the "FAITH" they needed to be saved, so why charge them with the "Guilt"???
The fact they "could have been saved" by Jesus dying for all sins, but rejected Jesus is the "JUSTIFICATION" of God condemning them, therefore the "FAULT" belong to them, not God in failing to provide them the same opportunity.
Calvin's god doesn't recognize "JUSTICE".
To all who have an ear:
I first heard Evangelist Sam Cathey say:
"Did it ever occur to you that nothing ever occurs to God?"
And he also said:
"God is able to start what he has finished!"
Just FYI to all who are thinking about such things.
sdg!
rd
I first heard Evangelist Sam Cathey say:
"Did it ever occur to you that nothing ever occurs to God?"
And he also said:
"God is able to start what he has finished!"
Just FYI to all who are thinking about such things.
sdg!
rd
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Here now, "DEEP THOUGHTS" aren't permitted??
I'm still trying to figure out why God blamed Adam/man for sin if the "Sovereign will" of God "Predestine it"???
</font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps, you might find your answer here:Romans 9:19-21
Joseph Botwinick
Salamander
New Member
That is probably the most dishonest remark concerning prayer i've ever read.
Jesus prayed, it was NOT a quandry for Him!
I pray, though I try my best to make it an issue, I do find the Lord answering my most earnest of prayers, that is not a quandry either.
The effectual earnest prayers of a righteous man, availeth much. No quandry there either!
Am I righteous? YES! By the Blood of Christ!
quickened1
New Member
You forgot the part about..."Okay, now I'm going to go out and win some souls for you. When I'm done, I'll let you know who I saved so you can add their names to the book of life." </font>[/QUOTE]
quickened1
New Member
You forgot the part about..."Okay, now I'm going to go out and win some souls for you. When I'm done, I'll let you know who I saved so you can add their names to the book of life." </font>[/QUOTE]</font>[/QUOTE]"To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." (1 COR. 9:22)
Here now, "DEEP THOUGHTS" aren't permitted??
I'm still trying to figure out why God blamed Adam/man for sin if the "Sovereign will" of God "Predestine it"???
</font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps, you might find your answer here:Romans 9:19-21
Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]God doesn't "MOLD" unbelievers, only the saved are "MOLDED" into whatever "position" he wants them.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Do I have the right to complain because "I" am not as well known as "Billy Graham"??
Php 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
Calvibaptist
New Member
That is probably the most dishonest remark concerning prayer i've ever read.
Jesus prayed, it was NOT a quandry for Him!
I pray, though I try my best to make it an issue, I do find the Lord answering my most earnest of prayers, that is not a quandry either.
The effectual earnest prayers of a righteous man, availeth much. No quandry there either!
Am I righteous? YES! By the Blood of Christ! </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus is God and therefore has no quandries. The quandry comes not in the practice of prayer, but in the explanation of prayer. If you try to theologically explain how prayer works, we run into problems. That was my point and there is nothing dishonest about it.
Calvibaptist
New Member
Boy, you sure don't know the context of Romans 9, do you? Are you suggesting that the vessels for dishonor, also described as vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, that are molded by the potter in Romans 9:21-22 are believers? That is probably the best example of bad exegesis in order to fit your beliefs that I have ever heard.
Boy, you sure don't know the context of Romans 9, do you? Are you suggesting that the vessels for dishonor, also described as vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, that are molded by the potter in Romans 9:21-22 are believers? That is probably the best example of bad exegesis in order to fit your beliefs that I have ever heard. </font>[/QUOTE]Let me show you one that's even better.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Try fitting calvin's doctrine of some predestine to hell into those verses.