Question for Dispensationalists

Ray, do you just not read what I write about Finney? I have posted to you twice about his rejection of the substitutionary atonement of Christ FROM HIS VERY OWN SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY.

Unlike you, who relies on biographers, I quote directly from the source material. Finney outright repudiated the substitutionary atonement AND called the imputation of Christ's righteousness a "legal fiction" He even said that the only sins for which Christ could have atoned were HIS OWN. (pp.320 -322). He blatantly denied the substitutionary atonement on p.217 of his work, when he wrote, " "...assumes that the atonement was a literal payment of a debt, which we have seen does not consist with the nature of the atonement...It is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of anyone." and on p. 209, "The atonement would present to creatures the highest possible motives to virtue. Example is the highest moral influence that can be exerted...If the benevolence manifested in the atonement does not subdue the selfishness of sinners, their case is hopeless." Since I have documented those statements to you twice within the past sixty days I will leave it to you to do your homework, since you, supposedly, have a doctoral degree. The book is called Systematic Theology by Charles Finney. Don't sit here and say we're wrong and misquoting Finney when it is so obvious you have not bothered, for whatever reason, to pick up a copy of his own work and read it for yourself.

Yes, but he believed that Jesus death was ONLY an EXAMPLE OF SELF-SACRFICE, just like all classic theological liberals believe. They use God language to say the same things evangelicals say but they mean something completely different. If you'd go to his actual writings and read them, you would understand this.

Yes, and most all them fell away and proved they were with us but not of us, even according to Finney himself. Charles Finney NEVER said revival and evangelistic results were the results of the working of the Holy Spirit. He said they were the result of "rightly constituted means."

Try reading the entire syntactical construction. SALVATION BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH is the antecedent of "that" which Paul idenifies as the gift of God. This is basic Greek syntax. The entire contents of the entire preceding clause, "For by grace are you saved through faith" is the antecedent. Salvation, grace, AND faith itself are the gift of God, because all three are contained in the clause. The Greek syntax does not support your contention.

Neither of these is talking about faith in the context of justification or regeneration. These are talking about sanctification, which nobody disagrees is a cooperative effort on the part of God and man after man is justified.

Glad you mentioned that, because if faith comes from man, with respect to justification, this gives you something about which to boast, thus you have faith in your ability to believe, not in God alone/Christ alone.

Bifurcation fallacy. It could also be true as a statement of fact about what pleases God, and that God ensures that saving faith is present by effectively calling and regenerating the individual elected unto salvation, thus ensuring that he will believe. If we assume that when God says such things, the persons must de facto have the ability to do them, then we must, to be consistent say all persons do, in fact, have an innate capacity to be holy as God is holy, since He also commands us all to do that as well in order to please Him. In short, if what you say is true of faith, it must also be true of works, so man, does, in fact, have the ability to be holy and save himself that way!

Scripture very plainly teaches irresistible grace when Jesus Himself says EVERYONE that has heard and learned from the Father comes to me after saying just before that no one comes to Him unless the Father draws them and He (Jesus) WILL (certainly, without exception) raise Him up on the last day and, in v.37 saying that He will in no wise cast out anybody that comes to Him.

 

If a person stays within the context of Ephesians chapter two, you will see that God speaking through the Apostle Paul does not say, “ . . . by grace and faith are ye saved” in verse five. What God is trying to say to us is that the perfection of His salvation’s Source comes from Almighty God alone.

In chapter two verse eight then means that Grace is the Source, while faith is the conduit through which this gift comes to a lost sinner.

The Baptist,Greek scholar, Dr. Robertson says, in his “Word Pictures in the N.T.” Vol. IV p. 525:

‘For by grace (tei gar charity). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pisteos). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine taute, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humon, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (doron) and not the result of our work.’

There is no bifurcation fallacy here. This bifurcation is distinct while connecting links of the whole process of our eternal salvation. The gift would remain not received if faith were not the human response to so great a gift, the offer of Christ's grace.

Calvinists still do not understand that Jesus knocks at the heart's door, [Revelation 3:20] He does not use a tactic like in Iraq, where the solders have to ram rod the door down to gain access. We would hope that all sinners would open the door but all do not open their lives to Him. [Acts 7:51 & Hebrews 6:6] Resisting the Holy Spirit is Resistible Grace one of the points of Arminianism.

The whole concept of 'spiritual warfare' implies the truth than millions are resisting God the Holy Spirit. The Great White Throne Judgment for sinners will one day be convened and the lost will be summoned before His tribunal, because
they have resisted His gift of grace.

 

You know Wes, when you lay off the "phoney-baloney" stuff you actually come up with some pretty good posts. Some of your last posts here cause me to doubt that you really believe some of the rather offbeat stuff you say you do. Maybe you think you do, but I'm wondering... </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you, it is kind of you to notice. May I remind you that just because you don't understand what I say, it is not necessarily phoney baloney, it is instead something you don't understand.

 

If Finney were here for you to ask, or to read your statement here, He would blow you right of your charger.

You do not know Finney, all you have is "some of his thoughts". Finney may have used as an illustration of a principle he was trying to teach, that Jesus' death is an example of.....That is standard practice amongst preachers. So don't hang your salvation on this one single example of Finney's thought.

 

So, you believe that it is Grace that saves us?

You believe that Grace is powerful enough to save all who will be saved?

You believe that Grace does it all by Grace's self?

WHAT IS GRACE?

So which definition of grace do you say has the strength or ability to do what you say it does?

Why are the scriptures silent about strength, or power, or workings of Grace to be the SAVIOR of mankind?

Why don't we hear grace refered to as ALMIGHTY GRACE!

I'll tell you why,
IT IS BECAUSE GRACE CANNOT SAVE ANYTHING!

GRACE BY ITSELF IS POWERLESS!

GRACE IS NOT AN ENTITY!

GRACE IS NOT QUANTIFIABLE!

GRACE IS NOT VISIBLE!

GRACE IS NOT SELF SUFFICIENT

GRACE IS NOT OMNISCIENT

GRACE IS NOT ALL SEEING

GRACE IS NOT GOD!

So, GeneMBridges, I suggest you try again! You have not convinced even a gnat!

Oh, I forgot to mention that GRACE IS NOT A TRANSFERABLE COMMODITY! IT CANNOT BE GIVEN BY ONE BEING TO ANOTHER BEING. Therefore GRACE cannot be given (ownership transferred) by God to man!

 

GeneMBridges,

FAITH DOES NOT SAVE MAN EITHER!

Faith, like Grace, has no strength unto itself

Faith is not self sufficient

Faith is not omniscient (its meaning says that).

Faith is not righteousness, thought if it is man faithing God, it is seen by God as such!

Faith like Grace is not a transferable commodity, therefore it cannot be given by one being to another (transfer of ownership)!.

 

So GeneMBridges,

Since Grace has no power to save, and since Faith likewise has no power to save, What, or Who saves?

GOD SAVES! Man's SALVATION is God's gift, given in grace to ALL who who have faith in HIM. "Him" is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...ANY OF THEM, OR ALL OF THEM!

SO "can it" about your grammatical syntax! it has not served you well!

 

Somebody is telling me that Wes hasn't the slightest idea what Grace is.

His favorite Bible verse is 1 John 4:2 - "...Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from "God...." but does not accept his Deity.

His faith regarding Jesus:

"Jesus is the Son of God," but not the second person of the Trinity.

"The Messiah come in the flesh," but is not equal to the Father.

What about it Wes?

 

Yet another statement by Wes that is easily refuted simply by knowing the Scripture.

Psalm 84:11 11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; The LORD gives grace and glory; No good thing does He withhold from those who walk uprightly.

Romans 12:3 3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Romans 15:15-16 15 But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you again, because of the grace that was given me from God, 16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles,

1 Corinthians 1:4-5 4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, 5 that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,

2 Corinthians 8:1-2 2 Corinthians 8:1 Now, brethren, we wish to make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the churches of Macedonia, 2 that in a great ordeal of affliction their abundance of joy and their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality.

Ephesians 3:7-8 7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,

Ephesians 4:7 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.

Ephesians 4:29 29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.

1 Peter 5:5 5 You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.

 

Then please be so kind as to define GRACE! But, do so in words and thoughts that even a little child can understand it! For if Grace is what SAVES US, we certainly want our children to understand it now don't we?

pure foolishness on your part! You have no way of knowing whether or not I "accept his Deity".

Why do you ignore all the posts in which I refer to Jesus as God the Son, the Messiah?

Keep your immature chides to yourself! You are deliberately trying to disrupt this conversation on EPHESIANS 2:8,9.

 

Another misguided post Larry?

Look at the common definitions of Grace that I posted. Apply the correct definition to each of the scriptures you posted.

If you have a different definition for Grace that is not contained in the common man's dictionary, please post it so we can all have, in common, "your definition" of Grace.

Perhaps you would like to explain how GRACE, "the showing of favor towards another", SAVES! Perhaps you can define the mechanics of just how that takes place. Perhaps you'd like to come out of your boxed religion and explore reality!

 

Perhaps you would like to not be a snot about it. You made a statement that grace is not a transferrable commodity, that it cannot be given. I showed a number of places where God specifically gives grace, thereby refuting your nation.

Grace is favor or kindness at is basic form. It can be given. God gave us favor when he saved us. You make some wierd distinctions and don't back them up with Scripture, and in fact, contradict what Scriputre plainly says. That is not my fault, nor is my response misguided.

Grace saves because God does not give us what we deserve. When you say God saves, grace doesn't, that is a ridiculous statement. No one disagrees with that. It just shows how much you misunderstand the way these terms are used. It would be helpful for you to do some studying so that you can use these terms in teh way they are normally used.

 

You know Wes I just can't see this at all. People in Hell due not to sin but unbelief and that unbelief is not considered sin?
And this unbelief is caused not by ignorance but with knowledge, a rejection to accept?
I did ask; So we can see people in Hell with no sin to account for, what happens then to people that have not had the chance to receive or reject Jesus. These people are free from the guilt of their sin and have not rejected Jesus. Will they find themselves in Heaven not having accepted the Lord?

About the Revelation quote you say that people will be judged according to their deeds.
The good deeds will survive and the bad deeds will be destroyed. From what you wrote I assume that 1 Cor 3:10-15 is in use. Is that so?
You say that man can do extremely good and bad things. Do you mean that the extremely good is up to righteousness? Good without sin? No I see in your next post you say that man cannot be righteous. Then all he does is sin, all his good deeds are sin. Right? But sin paid for?

We agree on that but it is the condition they are in that is the subject. I say they are in there as a punishment. If unbelief is not a sin then how can God punish anyone? I might be able to understand it a bit better if the natural consequence of unbelief meant you ended up in Hell by default. But you don't, it is a punishment and a punishment follows a crime. A crime against God is called a sin therefore unbelief must be a sin? No?
'...and their torture will not come to an end, day or night... Look! He does not just allow people to go into Hell but He chucks them in.Then, not satified with that, He will ensure they will be tortured day and night forever. (Told you He wasn't very nice didn't I?)

As to the belief; What is it? I don't know what you believe in. You say you believe in Jesus but what for? For salvation. But what is there in your faith that is different from say Judas. He believed Jesus.
I believe that Jesus died for my sins and I now rely only on Him for everything. My faith is invested in Jesus to do the job for me. That is what I believe belief is. Trusting in God. But you say it is your faith to give or not to give but it cannot mean a trusting in Him can it, because you say it is your faith that saves you?
I know we have been over this but bear with me.

Of course He does. How is a judgement reached if no law was broken? He says they stand judged already. Their sin has done for them unless they bow the knee. How can the Lord judge between belief and unbelief when no law is involved? No law no sin. If law then sin. Is it against the law not to believe? Is it a polite request that He gives us to take of life if we wish or is it a command. If it is a command and we fail it is sin.
Since the wages of sin is death, and these wages were picked up by another, how is it possible to die the second death? If unbelief is not a sin and the wages of sin were taken by Jesus by what possible route can one attain Hell. You have made it a difficult place to reach.

johnp.

 

Greetings GeneMBridges.

I do disagree! Being confident of this, that He who began a good work in me will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Php 1:6.
I'd be more of a hinderance than a help.

johnp.

 

No Larry you have not refuted my notion, you have given me examples of human opinion regarding grace.

Grace is favor or kindness...How is it given as a transferable commodity? How does one "release" favor or kindness to another so that the other can grasp it and hold onto it? Where is the transfer of the commodity? You see Larry, Grace is not a transferable commodity because you cannot "receive" it as one receives a commodity, nor can you pass it on to another releasing it to the other.

Now, what you do see in Grace is one's behavior toward you. The one who is behaving in Grace, is not behaving in anger, or Justice, is not being malicious, or rancorous, is not ignoring you, is not causing you discomfort, unless of course, you are feeling guilt for having committed a 'no-no'. Then you will feel discomfort from the guilt you have. But Grace is not a transferable commodity, it cannot be given from one to another. It has no power of its own. Therefore Grace cannot save! It is a behavior! Not a power.

Likewise Larry it would be helpful if you would recognize the truth and express the truth. Then maybe, just maybe, you will understand that the gift of God given in Ephesians 2:8,9 is not grace, nor faith, but rather SALVATION. Then too maybe you will understand my belief that we are saved BY GOD, through our faith in God, and nothing else.

 

In theology class we learned that some of God’s Attributes are Incommunicable meaning non-transferable to human beings. Among these are: Christ’s Omniscience/He knows all things (Isaiah 40:13); His Omnipresence/He is everywhere present at the same time (Ps. 139:7), and His Omnipotence/all powerful; here in the sense of His work in Creation. (Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30).

The Communicable Attributes of God are found in the ‘fruit of the Spirit’ as duly noted in Galatians 5:22. These attributes are transferable, from God to His people. When we are saved we are given the Spirit and we can develop these outgrowth of the Spirit of God. These transferable attributes that are found in God and in saved people are these: ‘Love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, truth and His spiritual life/eternal life through the Spirit of God.

Ephesians 2:8 suggests that grace is the gift of God to sinners. This too, must be communicable/transferable otherwise He would not offer His resplendent gift of grace to sinners as His endowment toward all lost souls. [Ephesians 3:7b & II Cor. 9:15]

 

Johnp,

You need to answer the question,"where in the human does belief and unbelief reside?" If you come up with any zone or part of the human makeup other than the human spirit, you have looked in all the wrong places. Both unbelief and belief reside in the human spirit. Now answer the question, "does the human spirit give life to the human flesh?" Jesus says the answer is YES! Then ask the question, "does the spirit depart the flesh when the flesh dies?" Paul has an answer for this. And you also must ask, "what happens to the flesh when the spirit departs from it?" One clue is the number of occupied graves.

With that settled, is there a Holy Spirit? Is the Holy Spirit a respecter of man? Does not the Holy Spirit visit all men? Does not the Holy Spirit revisit each man so long is the man is living in the flesh? Is it not true that man can change his mind on virtually anything, making it possible that the Holy Spirit may have visited any given man hundreds of times until finally the man, having "heard the word", now has a spirit that has changed its mind, and is now receptive to the Holy Spirit? I am persuaded that there will be none who are judged and cast into the lake of fire innocently! They will all have been visited many times by the Holy Spirit. Therefore they have no excuses, they simply failed to believe.

Do I really need to answer this for you? Look at my response above.

Yes, and the "view" of the judgment of deeds is in Revelation 20:12.

You are groping. Good deeds are good deeds and every human does good deeds, not one is totally evil. Jesus told us how even the wicked give their children bread to eat instead of stones.

We agree on that but it is the condition they are in that is the subject. I say they are in there as a punishment. If unbelief is not a sin then how can God punish anyone? </font>[/QUOTE]Did God (Jesus) not establish that FAITH is the standard by which people are saved? With the standard set, anyone not meeting that standard are rejected. That is, they are cast into the lake of fire, which is not a recycle bin in some factory, but is eternal and there is no escape for those who do not meet God's standard.

John 3:18 "whoever believes is not judged, whoever does not believe is judged by their own unbelief". So you see Jesus stipulated the DEFAULT!

That is why the Lake of fire is called "the second death". Even so, I think this thought that you quote is man's concept of Hell and not God's, because this heaven and earth will pass away. The Lake of Fire is part of "this heaven and earth", so it too will pass away, never to be seen again, never to be redeemed! Dead and gone forever.

Please Johnp, do not compare me to Judas. He was a man of prophesy destined to betray Jesus in order to fulfill one of the 60+ Messianic prophesies. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, come in the flesh so that WE, ALL of us, might have life through our faith in Him. But alas, not all put their faith in Jesus. Many will be cast into the lake of fire.

I have always said that it is through faith that we are saved BY GOD. I have said that FAITH cannot be received from another nor given to another. And I have said that "Faith in" is 'believing in' and 'trusting in' the object of one's faith, and that we can have many objects of faith (gods if you will), but there is only one object of faith by which we are saved, and that is Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ.

Of course He does. How is a judgement reached if no law was broken? He says they stand judged already.</font>[/QUOTE]Is the ballot box not a judgment? Is Miss America not so because she was judged to be so? There are many forms of Judgment. When one hears the word of God, the one may not make an active judgment to believe it. But passive judgment that postponement of such active judgment results in could cost the person their eternal life. NO sin was committed, unless procrastination is sin. But the postponement may be superseded by the persons untimely death before believe was gained. Therefore the spiritual condition of the person is unbelief. Unbelieve keeps one's name from being written in the book of life and not being found there the person is cast into the lake of fire. He judged himself!

Because eternal life is not based in law! It is based in FAITH! The law has been satisfied by the Atoning Power of Jesus Christ! Therefore the law has no say in ones eternal life. It is the spiritual condition of the one's spirit by which God determines one's destiny. Believers are NOT JUDGED, but pass from death unto life. Unbelievers are the only ones judged!

 

Ray,
We part company on this. NONE of the fruit of the spirit are transferable! They are the produce of the imperishable seeds of FAITH! We know that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. It is because of our faith in God that we produce in our spirit these NON-TRANSFERABLE Fruits. Not one of those items is a transferable commodity because they are all BEHAVIORAL TRAITS of the one possessing them!

You cannot give me one iota of your Joy! It is something that you alone possess. Now Joy can be possessed by individuals in a collective setting, but each person in the group has their own Joy. That is why in a church setting two persons sitting side by side may experience entirely different things, one Joy and the other remorse. The one with Joy may try to, and sometimes succeeds in raising the Joy level in the one steeped in remorse. Conversely the one with Joy may have that joy robbed by the one with remorse. the one with remorse did not receive any joy from the one with it, but the Joy level of the one who has it diminished greatly by the one with remorse.

The fruit of the spirit are attributes of the one having them. I believe they are part of the Image of God in which we are made! Even unbelievers can have the fruit of the spirit. I personally know many unbelievers that have most all of the fruit, they are generally happy and are therefore extremely difficult to persuade to faith in God.

So, I cannot agree with your statements. If you think about it, I'll bet you can name a few unbelievers that you know personally that have some or all of the fruits of the spirit. They are not transferable, they are uniquely personal!

 

That is a prayer and not a universal promise. If it were a universal promise we wouldn't have so many lukewarm Christians in the US.

If one understands that the normal form of a letter during that time was exactly as it is laid out then one would understand that the typical part of that letter in the secular society was a prayere to a deity. But Paul directs his prayer to God at the same time commending the Philippians and why he has every confidence to believe they will press ahead.