Question for my Calvinist friends regarding Gen 4

Allan,

The idea of the atonement was given in the garden, way before levitical law. It is true under levitical law that God allowed and/or setup other offerings. But the narrative of the Bible is that man is in need of the blood of the Lamb in order to atone sins. This idea was set before any other offerings.

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"If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?"

Kinda like "whosoever will may come"...right? But you must come only though the blood of Christ, not any way you want. The offering is and always has been.."Come unto me all who are weary and burdened, I shall give you rest." This as you know is not talking about having a long bad-hair day. Its seeing your heavy weight of sin where you want to get rid of it and weary over your sinful state before a Holy God. But man wants to come in their own ways. Whosoever will ...is not whatsoever way.

So to the Calvinist..."If you do right(if you come unto me)...will you not be accepted?(I will in no wise cast out). Whosever will may come. Men come (rightly) only when they see they need saved from their sins. Cain did not understand this need of doing it the right way. Only though the blood can we come.



In Christ..........James

 

Allan, you said:

Consider Judas. Surely he understood his lost state and the consequences thereof, right? Yet he chose to stay there.

I look at it this way - the heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament shows His handiwork, and most of the time we are oblivious to it. Sometimes, though, we see it. I think it is the same with the lost. God declares their plight, and usually they are oblivious to it but sometimes circumstances cause them to see what lies in front of them, and yet like Judas they choose contempt or despair over repentance. I don't think I can buy your argument that unless they understand it God hasn't really revealed it to them, but it is certainly possible for a lost man to see his condition and his fate and not change his ways.

I've talked to people who told me that they were sinners and deserved hell, and they believed that they would end up there, but also that they did not care. That's something that I do not understand but I cannot deny that it happens. It sounds like you don't see this as possible. Correct?

 

Moral / Spiritual Slavery

One side says man is enslaved to his depravity where by he will never, can never, turn to Christ for Salvation

The other side believe man is depraved but not incapacitated.

That really is the core of the issue of Moral / Spiritual Slavery

We defend our views over and over and over and over.

I am a free willer who believe in eternal security and a pre-mil / pre-trip believer.

There are difficult verse to content with.

I am a stanch defender of God's grace. Calvinist like to express this as their nitch too.

As you can see it won't end but it is good to consider and discuss and probe and have a little fun.

Now here is a little fun - Turnip greens are preferred over Tulip greens.

One can become very sick eating Tulip greens, but you can be CURED

SEE Below.




CURED from Calvinism and Tulipitis

C- Conditional salvation

Mark 1:14. Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15. and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Luke 15:7. "I tell you that in the same way, there will be {more} joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Acts 17: 30. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all {people} everywhere should repent,

II Peter 3: 9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Acts 16: 30. and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31. They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Romans 4:5. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Romans 10:9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

I Corinthians 1:21. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

U- Unlimited Atonement

John 1: 4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6. There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

John 3:16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

John 12:32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.";

John 12:47. "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

I Timothy 2: 6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time.

I Timothy 4:10. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Hebrews 2:9. But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, {namely,} Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

II Peter 2:1. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

I John 2: 2. and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the whole world


R- Resistible Grace

Acts 28: 24. Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.

Acts 17:0. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all {people} everywhere should repent,

John 5:40. and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

II Peter 3:9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Luke 7:30. But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Acts 7:51. "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matthew 23:37. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

John 7:17. "If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or {whether} I speak from Myself.

E - Eternal Security

John 10:9. "My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father's hand. 30. "I and the Father are one."

John 6:39. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day

John 14:16. "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

II Corinthians 1: 22. who also sealed us and gave {us} the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 4:30. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

Philippians 1: 6. {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 7:25. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

I Peter 1: 5. who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


D- Delivered from being Dead in Trespasses and sin

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, 7. so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {salvation is} the gift of God; 9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Romans 5: 20. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21. so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with {Him,} in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin. 11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 22. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.23. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8: 10. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

II Corinthians 5: 19. namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

I Corinthians 15:56. The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57. but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:22. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe

Ephesians 1: 19. namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

 

Allan, I don't know how others have answered since I haven't taken time to read everyone's responses. I will give my understanding briefly.

Cain killing his brother made the choice to rebel in light of revealed truth, and by rejecting the truth he remained and brought forth the Judgment of God. But God was still merciful to him and honored Cains plea about God judgment being to much to bear as others would surely kill him.[/quote]Not sure what the opposites are. You say Cain was not of the elect. How do you know that? I don’t recall the Bible saying that.

You said that God showed Cain he had a choice in his fallen nature. That is not what God showed Cain. God’s point was that Cain had a choice about his choice; it wasn’t about his nature. No one has a choice about their nature. It is what it is. But we all have a choice about our actions. No one forced Cain to murder. He did that of his own free will. And that is perfectly consistent with Calvinism.

You say that God reasoned and made a pleas to him to change. God does that to all sinners. That is the general call of the gospel. It goes out to all who hear. He commands all men everywhere to repent.

You said that Cain heard, spoke to, and was given choice by God and Cain understood. I don’t know why that is problematic for Calvinism. The issue in Calvinism is not physical hearing and understanding, but spiritual hearing and understanding. You see the same thing in John 8 where the Pharisees heard and understood Christ (they were having a conversation), and Christ told them they could not hear. It was obviously referring to spiritual understanding.

I don’t know that we know enough about Cain’s final end to know whether or not there was spiritual understanding.

But Calvinism does not teach that men can’t understand the grammar and meaning of words. It teaches that men do not have spiritual understanding. Those are very different things.

So I see no opposites in your presentation.