• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Question for my Calvinist friends regarding Gen 4

Allan

Active Member
Jarthur001 said:
Allan,

Being DEAD in sins does not only mean that they do not understand. It also means they do not see a need. The Devil believes in God, but the devil sees no need to worship God. The Devil know Christ was the choosen one, this is why the Devil tried to have Christ jump from the temple. Just believeing in the facts means nothing. Ask anyone if they want to go to hell. All will say no. Christ does not save us from hell. Yes, in the end we do not go there. But salvation is from sins. Now ask this to the same people..."Do you need Christ to save you from your sins?" Most people say no.
I have no problem with this and agree with it - but as an aside, I have met some people who actually desired to go to hell. But I understand what you are saying - if those people understood what hell really was they would not wish to go there -



Jarthur001 said:
Cain said no. Cain did not understand the need of the atonement. The Bible does not say this...but it is my guess that Cain said...why blood? Why not just a apple??? Cain knew of God, but did not see the need of a blood washing away of sins.
I disagree that it was about an atoning sacrifice. Mostly due to the fact a bloodless offering was not necessarily inappropriate as seen in Lev. 2: 1, 4, 14-15. But is more about Cains attitude of unbeleif that displeased God. That Cain did not believe there was a need for this. Cain brought of his fruits or that common gathering but Able brought the firstlings of his flocks and the fat. Cain brought friut out of the rest but Able brought to God his first and best. We see a definate attitude difference towards what was being done.

But here is where what I'm asking about comes more so into play. God noticing Cains shagrin at His displeasure then asks Cain "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?" God asks Cain a question that obviously Cain knows the answer to with regard to a relationship with Him. God is encouraging Cain to do what he knows he should that God would accept him. This is contrary (from what I know) of Calvinism that God does not offer His acceptence (salvation) to anyone who is not of the elect (those who will be saved) He offers ONLY to those He has chosen. This was not a general call either due to the fact God spoke to Cain and 'offered' TO Cain His acceptence if Cain would "do" well. I believe this refers to belief or faith.

God says if 'YOU' will do what is required will 'I' not accept you.
 

Allan

Active Member
reformedbeliever said:
No personal opinion at all. I answered you correctly. When your questions are flawed to begin with it is hard to answer you Allan. That is the reason I was asking you questions.

Who said he was not elect?
Can you tell me anyone of the elect in History who was seperated from and cursed by God??
Cain was.

God spoke to Cain directly, why would he need to hear spiritually?
So are you saying that when God audably speaks we do not need hear anything in the spiritual sense - that being to have understanding and respond in faith. God spoke directly to Abraham, Moses and others, did they not need to hear spiritually in order to respond in Faith. Or is it that when God speak in the audible that He superimposes that understanding and we HAVE it already?


Do you think that God was not in control when Cain made a choice?
God is always in control no matter what choice Cain made. Are you saying God couldn't be in control if someone else can make a choice.

Are any choices we make free in the libertarian free will sense? Do you make amoral choices?
This is just off topic but I will simply say - I do not hold that any man makes a choice that is unknown to God, but that God holds man responsible to and for all choices God gives him to make. Much like God telling Cain "If you will do good will I not accept you?" Cain was given the choice and was held responsible for his desicions.

Now if you wish to discuss the OP fine. But there is NO flawed qustion to begin with, since I ask how YOU (the Calvinist) view this text and to show why that I may better understand. If there is any flaw it may be that I asked any question.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Allan said:
I disagree that it was about an atoning sacrifice. Mostly due to the fact a bloodless offering was not necessarily inappropriate as seen in Lev. 2: 1, 4, 14-15. But is more about Cains attitude of unbeleif that displeased God. That Cain did not believe there was a need for this. Cain brought of his fruits or that common gathering but Able brought the firstlings of his flocks and the fat. Cain brought friut out of the rest but Able brought to God his first and best. We see a definate attitude difference towards what was being done.

But here is where what I'm asking about comes more so into play. God noticing Cains shagrin at His displeasure then asks Cain "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?" God asks Cain a question that obviously Cain knows the answer to with regard to a relationship with Him. God is encouraging Cain to do what he knows he should that God would accept him. This is contrary (from what I know) of Calvinism that God does not offer His acceptence (salvation) to anyone who is not of the elect (those who will be saved) He offers ONLY to those He has chosen. This was not a general call either due to the fact God spoke to Cain and 'offered' TO Cain His acceptence if Cain would "do" well. I believe this refers to belief or faith.

God says if 'YOU' will do what is required will 'I' not accept you.
Allan,

The idea of the atonement was given in the garden, way before levitical law. It is true under levitical law that God allowed and/or setup other offerings. But the narrative of the Bible is that man is in need of the blood of the Lamb in order to atone sins. This idea was set before any other offerings.

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
*************
"If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?"

Kinda like "whosoever will may come"...right? But you must come only though the blood of Christ, not any way you want. The offering is and always has been.."Come unto me all who are weary and burdened, I shall give you rest." This as you know is not talking about having a long bad-hair day. Its seeing your heavy weight of sin where you want to get rid of it and weary over your sinful state before a Holy God. But man wants to come in their own ways. Whosoever will ...is not whatsoever way.

So to the Calvinist..."If you do right(if you come unto me)...will you not be accepted?(I will in no wise cast out). Whosever will may come. Men come (rightly) only when they see they need saved from their sins. Cain did not understand this need of doing it the right way. Only though the blood can we come.



In Christ..........James
 

whatever

New Member
Allan, you said:
So God reveals to the sinner, dead in sin, his lost state and the consequences thereof and man chooses to stay there. Am I correct in this, at least thus far??
Consider Judas. Surely he understood his lost state and the consequences thereof, right? Yet he chose to stay there.

I look at it this way - the heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament shows His handiwork, and most of the time we are oblivious to it. Sometimes, though, we see it. I think it is the same with the lost. God declares their plight, and usually they are oblivious to it but sometimes circumstances cause them to see what lies in front of them, and yet like Judas they choose contempt or despair over repentance. I don't think I can buy your argument that unless they understand it God hasn't really revealed it to them, but it is certainly possible for a lost man to see his condition and his fate and not change his ways.

I've talked to people who told me that they were sinners and deserved hell, and they believed that they would end up there, but also that they did not care. That's something that I do not understand but I cannot deny that it happens. It sounds like you don't see this as possible. Correct?
 

Allan

Active Member
Whatever:

I've talked to people who told me that they were sinners and deserved hell, and they believed that they would end up there, but also that they did not care. That's something that I do not understand but I cannot deny that it happens. It sounds like you don't see this as possible. Correct?

No, I actually stated pretty much what you did back in post #21 in speaking with James (Jauthor). About knowing some people who actually desire (WANT) to go to hell, But I have also met those who could careless. I my estimating it would be me who sees this a possible (responsible for choices as God presents them) but didn't know of any Calvinist who would state this as a possibility. I believe their are those who will not want to be subject to God in any fashion and those willingly surrender themselves to His Grace and mercy. They reject even KNOWING the truth, like Satan who was a servent of the Most High and before His presense STILL rejected in spite of the truth before him. Why, all we know is pride is what caused him to fall and that is what scripture says of man as well. Pride goes before the fall, and a haughty heart before destruction.

I don't think I can buy your argument that unless they understand it God hasn't really revealed it to them, but it is certainly possible for a lost man to see his condition and his fate and not change his ways.
This is the argument of revelation equalling understanding. I believe that it is not only possible but that (as I believe show in Gen 4) that is what God does but through differing means to reveal. We know Gods ultimate means is His Word but scripture also states (as you did) that nature itself bares witness of these basic truths. And if someone does not know the Law [of God] they are not 'under' the Law. However they are still responsible to the truth revealed (even in nature or the conscience) to them as to HOW the will respond.

I agree with you thus far (as I see it that is)
Yet Calvinism says this is not so...
1. The dead are not called to that they may see, for they are dead and can not...
2. God does not try to reason with sinners to be His for He already knows whom He chose and the rest are to stay in their condemned state.
3. There is no choice so revealing a persons lost state who is not of the elect accomplishes nothing in the purpose of God as He does not intend to change them.

This is where my confusion rests and wanting to see how the Calvinist clarifies them. It is like I said confusing that the 3 points can not be but we see in scriptures things like God intervening so Israel would not see and believe because otherwise they WOULD have believed and in Gen 4 with regard to Cain and some others.

Yet the point I'm making doesn't need to be belabored as I am looking more for your view in harmonizing these scriptures than how I "THINK" you view or don't view them.

Clear as mud?
 

GordonSlocum

New Member
Moral / Spiritual Slavery

One side says man is enslaved to his depravity where by he will never, can never, turn to Christ for Salvation

The other side believe man is depraved but not incapacitated.

That really is the core of the issue of Moral / Spiritual Slavery

We defend our views over and over and over and over.

I am a free willer who believe in eternal security and a pre-mil / pre-trip believer.

There are difficult verse to content with.

I am a stanch defender of God's grace. Calvinist like to express this as their nitch too.

As you can see it won't end but it is good to consider and discuss and probe and have a little fun.

Now here is a little fun - Turnip greens are preferred over Tulip greens.

One can become very sick eating Tulip greens, but you can be CURED

SEE Below.




CURED from Calvinism and Tulipitis

C- Conditional salvation

Mark 1:14. Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15. and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Luke 15:7. "I tell you that in the same way, there will be {more} joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Acts 17: 30. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all {people} everywhere should repent,

II Peter 3: 9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Acts 16: 30. and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31. They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Romans 4:5. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Romans 10:9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

I Corinthians 1:21. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

U- Unlimited Atonement

John 1: 4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6. There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

John 3:16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

John 12:32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.";

John 12:47. "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

I Timothy 2: 6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time.

I Timothy 4:10. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Hebrews 2:9. But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, {namely,} Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

II Peter 2:1. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

I John 2: 2. and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the whole world


R- Resistible Grace

Acts 28: 24. Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.

Acts 17:0. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all {people} everywhere should repent,

John 5:40. and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

II Peter 3:9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Luke 7:30. But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Acts 7:51. "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matthew 23:37. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

John 7:17. "If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or {whether} I speak from Myself.

E - Eternal Security

John 10:9. "My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father's hand. 30. "I and the Father are one."

John 6:39. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day

John 14:16. "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

II Corinthians 1: 22. who also sealed us and gave {us} the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 4:30. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

Philippians 1: 6. {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 7:25. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

I Peter 1: 5. who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


D- Delivered from being Dead in Trespasses and sin

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, 7. so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {salvation is} the gift of God; 9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Romans 5: 20. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21. so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with {Him,} in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin. 11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 22. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.23. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8: 10. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

II Corinthians 5: 19. namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

I Corinthians 15:56. The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57. but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:22. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe

Ephesians 1: 19. namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Allan

Active Member
The idea of the atonement was given in the garden, way before levitical law. It is true under levitical law that God allowed and/or setup other offerings. But the narrative of the Bible is that man is in need of the blood of the Lamb in order to atone sins. This idea was set before any other offerings.
James,
I agree with you but the point I was making is we do not know if this offering was specifically stated but only assumed it is atonement. But whether or not it was an attonement offering which I 'think' it could have been this was about believing or not believing God and His very word (spoken here). God simply says that if he does right, will he not be accepted? Will Cain do what he KNOWS is right and be in fellowship with God?

That being said...
"If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?"

Kinda like "whosoever will may come"...right? But you must come only though the blood of Christ, not any way you want. The offering is and always has been.."Come unto me all who are weary and burdened, I shall give you rest." This as you know is not talking about having a long bad-hair day. Its seeing your heavy weight of sin where you want to get rid of it and weary over your sinful state before a Holy God. But man wants to come in their own ways. Whosoever will ...is not whatsoever way.

So to the Calvinist..."If you do right(if you come unto me)...will you not be accepted?(I will in no wise cast out). Whosever will may come. Men come (rightly) only when they see they need saved from their sins. Cain did not understand this need of doing it the right way. Only though the blood can we come.
And here we agree again, it is what comes after this that I'm looking for as you are only stating what God will do for those who are His elect. At least this is what you have maintained in speaking with me over multiple threads. If I'm wrong here simply address it for both of us later on.l

But I questions for you still remain here.
1. Cain was the first person born into sin and therefore a sinner by nature.
2. He was not of the Elect.
3. We have no free-choice to do contrary to our nature.

verses

1. All in sin are spiritually dead and unless regenerate they can not hear God or understand spiritual things. Yet Cain heard, spoke to, and was give choice by God to repent and Cain understood exactly what God ment.
2. He was Not of the Elect but God reasoned if not made a plea to him to change his way or attitude.
3. God showed Cain he had a choice in his fallen nature.

Cain killing his brother made the choice to rebel in light of revealed truth, and by rejecting the truth he remained and brought forth the Judgment of God. But God was still merciful to him and honored Cains plea about God judgment being to much to bear as others would surely kill him.
:smilewinkgrin:
 

Allan

Active Member
Gordon:

I to am as you but really this is not a debate per-say as I would like to see a clear picture in relation to an actual example. Much like High School Math, they give you an example that is very simple in nature but then turn you loose to solve one the teacher has to go back and look at do it. I just wanted to see how it plays out when the rubber touches the road in relation to a very specific contrast (at least that I see).

While I appreciate your posting I would like to try to stay on topic and not get into a 5 point debate. However from the look of the new threas it may just be around the corner :laugh:

Seriously, though thank you for your post and for others who have done so curtiously.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
Allan, I don't know how others have answered since I haven't taken time to read everyone's responses. I will give my understanding briefly.


The question was about if these three are correct how come these three opposites are shown to be happening.
I am in confusion as to how this plays into the Calvinistic view.

1. Cain was the first person born into sin and therefore a sinner by nature.
2. He was not of the Elect.
3. We have no free-choice to do contrary to our nature.

verses

1. All in sin are spiritually dead and unless regenerate they can not hear God or understand spiritual things. Yet Cain heard, spoke to, and was give choice by God to repent and Cain understood exactly what God ment.
2. He was Not of the Elect but God reasoned if not made a plea to him to change his way or attitude.
3. God showed Cain he had a choice in his fallen nature.
Cain killing his brother made the choice to rebel in light of revealed truth, and by rejecting the truth he remained and brought forth the Judgment of God. But God was still merciful to him and honored Cains plea about God judgment being to much to bear as others would surely kill him.[/quote]Not sure what the opposites are. You say Cain was not of the elect. How do you know that? I don’t recall the Bible saying that.

You said that God showed Cain he had a choice in his fallen nature. That is not what God showed Cain. God’s point was that Cain had a choice about his choice; it wasn’t about his nature. No one has a choice about their nature. It is what it is. But we all have a choice about our actions. No one forced Cain to murder. He did that of his own free will. And that is perfectly consistent with Calvinism.

You say that God reasoned and made a pleas to him to change. God does that to all sinners. That is the general call of the gospel. It goes out to all who hear. He commands all men everywhere to repent.

You said that Cain heard, spoke to, and was given choice by God and Cain understood. I don’t know why that is problematic for Calvinism. The issue in Calvinism is not physical hearing and understanding, but spiritual hearing and understanding. You see the same thing in John 8 where the Pharisees heard and understood Christ (they were having a conversation), and Christ told them they could not hear. It was obviously referring to spiritual understanding.

I don’t know that we know enough about Cain’s final end to know whether or not there was spiritual understanding.

But Calvinism does not teach that men can’t understand the grammar and meaning of words. It teaches that men do not have spiritual understanding. Those are very different things.

So I see no opposites in your presentation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top