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Question for non-Calvinists

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by FERRON BRIMSTONE, Aug 26, 2006.

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  1. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    If God's election of people is conditioned upon His forknowledge of the belief that people would have, then what about people in the most remote parts of the world? It is not fair that they didn't get to hear the gospel and be able to believe.
    What about the "before the foundation of the world", its God's Word, He inspired it... if you have a problem with it, take it up with Him. Grace and peace
     
    #21 reformedbeliever, Aug 27, 2006
  2. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Indeed it is not because of foreknowledge, for God made ALL men. If He knows who will be saved, and makes them, then He must know who will not be saved and makes them also. This view changes nothing. Why you may ask? Why did God make the damned if He knew they would not be saved? Now this is the wrong view...but it shows even with this view Some are made and go to hell, and some are made and are saved.

    The fact is...Gods election is not about what we do. Its not about our will or our works. God goes out of His way so that we will not think that He choose for these reasons. God choose for His own pleasure. Once the choice is made, it is over with.

    When we vote our the town mayor, after the election the mayor does not need to choose the town...now does he? The choice is made my those that elect. God elects to salvation...based not on what we do...nor how much money we have...nor if we are Jew or Greek....not because we are 1st born....not because we sin little or sin a lot. God elects based on HIS pleasure.

    Why was Christ born in a little town and not a major city like Rome? Many more people would have heard the good news in Rome. But this was not part of Gods plan. Why did God speak to those keeping sheep...and not to the kings of the earth when Christ came? Kings are great men..and could move many people to believe. But God told someone in a field watching sheep. Why? Because of His pleasure.

    I mean...there were people looking for Christ coming..and missed it. why? If any body wanted to believe it was those watching for Christ to come. If election was based on foreknowledge, then why not choose those looking for Christ? Why not go to them and say..."Christ is here!! You can find Him in this small town." Why did not God tell those looking for Christ coming?...yet told the guys in a open field? why? Because God chooses according to His pleasure.
     
    #22 Jarthur001, Aug 27, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 27, 2006
  3. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Amen Brother!
     
    #23 reformedbeliever, Aug 27, 2006
  4. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    I don't believe we choose first either. I agree that God chooses us first. I also agree that God draws us to Him. I did not seek God on my own. It was the word of God and the Holy Spirit that pointed me to Him.

    We definately agree on God's knowledge of all things. I also totally agree with you that God's choosing people has nothing to do with them deserving it, earning it, or merit.

    I confess, I have encountered people like that as well.
     
    #24 Blammo, Aug 27, 2006
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    According to Calvinistic doctrine, what does "fair" have to do with anything. What is fair about picking some and not picking others when all are just alike? Is that fair?
     
    #25 Brother Bob, Aug 27, 2006
  6. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Exactly Bro Bob. God's election of individuals is not about fairness. If it were then every single individual would be lost. It is not fair that Jesus pay the sin debt for all. What is fair about that. You made my point. It is not about fairness.
     
    #26 reformedbeliever, Aug 27, 2006
  7. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I agree with you totally that its not about fairness. It is all about mercy.
    I try to read you and the others posts carefully and we both always stress the parts where we disagree to the point that it dosen't fairly represent the other's side.
    If we both sat down and took it step by step we would agree right down the line until we got to one thing and that is I believe that God's Spirit is striving with all men to believe and have their heart changed and you believe that God just changes the heart without any input of the individual at all. All the rest we see alike, as far as I can tell.
     
    #27 Brother Bob, Aug 27, 2006
  8. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Well actually Bro. Bob I do believe that God's Spirit is calling all men. I just believe that He has an effectual call and it is then that the Holy Spirit changes their nature to give them the ability to respond where they otherwise did not have that ability. The one thing i'm not saying is that there are some men who truly believe in their hearts and want to be saved who can not. I believe fully in Romans 10 as with the rest of the Bible. I believe that whosoever will is true... and also in divine election. They both are taught in scripture. Some of us lean more in one direction than the other... but God forbid that we teach one to the exclusion of the other. We make each other strong in Christ. As long as we live in Him and continue to be one as He is one, we will produce fruit. Grace and peace
     
    #28 reformedbeliever, Aug 27, 2006
  9. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE New Member

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    It is beginning to sound like we all agree on alot more than we thought we did, we may have just been saying it different. We may have also had a misconstrued idea of what each other believed.
    :laugh:
     
    #29 FERRON BRIMSTONE, Aug 28, 2006
  10. thjplgvp

    thjplgvp Member

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    I don't believe that. :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #30 thjplgvp, Aug 28, 2006
  11. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE New Member

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    me niether.:tongue3:
     
    #31 FERRON BRIMSTONE, Aug 28, 2006
  12. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    If Calvinists say that this is about election, as Brother Bob said, many Arminians on the other hand say that this is about salvation.
    Both, I think, are contextually wrong.
    This is about the ministry, about commitment to a life of service to the Master.
    Many are called to this life of service, but only few are chosen.
     
    #32 pinoybaptist, Aug 29, 2006
  13. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Seems like He would know who to call in the family to preach.
     
    #33 Brother Bob, Aug 29, 2006
  14. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE New Member

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    Pinoy, please explain your position in more detail. I cannot see where you are coming from.


    As you can see from vs 1 this is definitely talking about the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Mat 22:1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying,
    Mat 22:2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son,
    Mat 22:3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come.
    Mat 22:4 Again he sent other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.'
    Mat 22:5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business,
    Mat 22:6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them.
    Mat 22:7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
    Mat 22:8 Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy.
    Mat 22:9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.'
    Mat 22:10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.
    Mat 22:11 "But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment.
    Mat 22:12 And he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless.
    Mat 22:13 Then the king said to the attendants, 'Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
    Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."



    This is also talking about the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Mat 20:8 So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, 'Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.' 9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. 11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, 12 saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.' 13 But he answered one of them and said, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?' 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."


    ps. Brother Bob may get offended if he thinks your calling him a Calvinist.
     
    #34 FERRON BRIMSTONE, Aug 29, 2006
  15. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Na, I love my misguided brethren. :)
     
    #35 Brother Bob, Aug 29, 2006
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