I was interested in this and found a claim that there are two Dorian modes, the Greek efgabcde and the Medieval/Modern defgabcd.
Dorian mode
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Question for the musically educated
- Thread starter Bro. Curtis
- Start date
Dorian mode
That actually disproves the idea that "unresolved" chords are unchristian. A typical listener, whether they be trained or not, will not consider them to be "incomplete" when the final chord is played.
If your contention were really to hold water, we'd have to ban the use of grandfather clocks, carillons and orchestra chimes. The reason is that the bell tones produce minor third overtones, and minor thirds are "unresolved". I dunno about you, but I'm not willing to part with my clock just yet.
It's a subjective idea, at best. Like I said before, I don't think God cares.
No, but you make a good argument for music from "Disney's Electrical Parade" being permissible in church.
Debby in Philly
Active Member
Music is in the ear of the beholder.
A long time ago, the interval of a diminished fifth ("tri-tone") was considered evil and was said to have the power to invoke the Devil himself. As such, in writing chorale harmony, you could not have a diminished fifth, nor "pass through" one in a choral part.
Does that make any sense today? Of course not! When our music (that is, our worship) comes from the heart, and is offered as a gift to God, He doesn't care if it has diminished fifths, seventh chords, or whatever. He created it all.
Where the difference lies is with the human listener, and what response the piece was intended to evoke. Then you might have some things to consider. But is it "wrong?" No.
A long time ago, the interval of a diminished fifth ("tri-tone") was considered evil and was said to have the power to invoke the Devil himself. As such, in writing chorale harmony, you could not have a diminished fifth, nor "pass through" one in a choral part.
Does that make any sense today? Of course not! When our music (that is, our worship) comes from the heart, and is offered as a gift to God, He doesn't care if it has diminished fifths, seventh chords, or whatever. He created it all.
Where the difference lies is with the human listener, and what response the piece was intended to evoke. Then you might have some things to consider. But is it "wrong?" No.
I was interested in this and found a claim that there are two Dorian modes, the Greek efgabcde and the Medieval/Modern defgabcd.
Dorian mode </font>[/QUOTE]I've done some further research and have discovered that the material is indeed correct. I've primarily studied the church modes of the Medievil period.
Even though this is fixed, it still really has nothing to do with the OP. Ending unresolved is not bad, just another way to end. It may drive you crazy, but it's not that bad.
As an example, you and I may listen to the same piece and you will feel uncomfortable about the unresolved ending whereas I may not. Does this make one of us wrong or the peice wrong? No, it's merely a different perception.
[ November 17, 2005, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: tenor ]
Interesting and respectful responses.
Should Christian music be dissonant & tense, or should it reflect the peace we find in Christ ? Should it show Christ's words "it is finished" ?
BTW, I love this.
Should Christian music be dissonant & tense, or should it reflect the peace we find in Christ ? Should it show Christ's words "it is finished" ?
BTW, I love this.
Johnv says....
If your contention were really to hold water, we'd have to ban the use of grandfather clocks, carillons and orchestra chimes. The reason is that the bell tones produce minor third overtones, and minor thirds are "unresolved". I dunno about you, but I'm not willing to part with my clock just yet.
Minor chords are resolved. There are no conflicting notes. Take the chord "C".
Major C E G
Minor C Eflat G
The third is changed, flattened, and everytime you hot the note, all the way up the keys, you will have to play an Eflat.
Let's compare it with C major 7th....
C E G B
There is a conflict here, as B & C don't fit together. If you don't believe me, play the B & C notes next to each other, over & over, & tell us how long it took for your wife to throw something at you......they contrast.
I'm not saying it's evil, I'm not saying rock & roll is sinful, I'm asking if we should work to be like Christ when we worship him in music.....
If your contention were really to hold water, we'd have to ban the use of grandfather clocks, carillons and orchestra chimes. The reason is that the bell tones produce minor third overtones, and minor thirds are "unresolved". I dunno about you, but I'm not willing to part with my clock just yet.
Minor chords are resolved. There are no conflicting notes. Take the chord "C".
Major C E G
Minor C Eflat G
The third is changed, flattened, and everytime you hot the note, all the way up the keys, you will have to play an Eflat.
Let's compare it with C major 7th....
C E G B
There is a conflict here, as B & C don't fit together. If you don't believe me, play the B & C notes next to each other, over & over, & tell us how long it took for your wife to throw something at you......they contrast.
I'm not saying it's evil, I'm not saying rock & roll is sinful, I'm asking if we should work to be like Christ when we worship him in music.....
It depends. If in the music you're depicting the crucifixion, scourging, temptation, betrayal, dissonant and fortissimo might be perfectly called for.
Excellent.
Excellent.
I disagree to a point. I think there things within the structure of music that can make it better, more edifying.
The mere presence of a seventh of a sixth in a final chord does not make the chord unresolved.
More crucial is the root of the chord. Is it the tonic or not?
Barbershop ends quite often witha sixth in the chord, but to me, doesn't sound unresolved.
Two popular songs that immediately come to mind that end on a major 7th chord (all part of the scale)That do not leave me feeling "unresolved" are "Colour My World" by Chicago and "Neither One of Us" by Gladys Knight and the Pips. These give teh "close vocal harmony" feel.
I do agree that we do not need to end our Christian songs with this "feeling of incompleteness" unless there is a specific reason other than "It sounds cool."
I love singing songs that end with "dirt notes," as these dissonances are often called, especially when I have those notes. It's fun, but as a Minister of Music, I probably wouldn't use this sound much.
Bro. Curtis, I do agree with you about it being better to not end unresolved.
Also, you're right, this is fun, in a wierd sort of way..
More crucial is the root of the chord. Is it the tonic or not?
Barbershop ends quite often witha sixth in the chord, but to me, doesn't sound unresolved.
Two popular songs that immediately come to mind that end on a major 7th chord (all part of the scale)That do not leave me feeling "unresolved" are "Colour My World" by Chicago and "Neither One of Us" by Gladys Knight and the Pips. These give teh "close vocal harmony" feel.
I do agree that we do not need to end our Christian songs with this "feeling of incompleteness" unless there is a specific reason other than "It sounds cool."
I love singing songs that end with "dirt notes," as these dissonances are often called, especially when I have those notes. It's fun, but as a Minister of Music, I probably wouldn't use this sound much.
Bro. Curtis, I do agree with you about it being better to not end unresolved.
Also, you're right, this is fun, in a wierd sort of way..
Seth&Mattsmom
New Member
In Western music, the musical notes are a half step (semitone) apart. For example, on a standard Western piano or harpsichord, each white key and each black key represents one of the 12 possible notes that can be used in Western music, and each is a half step higher than the key immediately adjacent to its left.
However, many (but not all) Middle Eastern songs use quarter tones. A quarter tone is a pitch that is halfway between two adjacent keys on a Western piano. So, instead of having 12 possible notes to use as the basis of building a scale, Oriental music has twice as many possible notes to choose from in building a maqam. It would be impossible to play a Middle Eastern song that uses quarter tones on many standard Western instruments such as pianos, trumpets, and saxophones, because certain notes would simply not have corresponding keys or finger combinations--they would fall halfway between two adjacent ones. (It is possible to tune some Western instruments to play music with quarter tones, but the standard instrument tuned for normal Western symphonic or concert band music would not be capable of playing quarter tones.)
I copied this from a site introducing Eastern music...
would you say that a born again Christian that uses the Eastern type of music is not pleasing God with his songs to Him?
However, many (but not all) Middle Eastern songs use quarter tones. A quarter tone is a pitch that is halfway between two adjacent keys on a Western piano. So, instead of having 12 possible notes to use as the basis of building a scale, Oriental music has twice as many possible notes to choose from in building a maqam. It would be impossible to play a Middle Eastern song that uses quarter tones on many standard Western instruments such as pianos, trumpets, and saxophones, because certain notes would simply not have corresponding keys or finger combinations--they would fall halfway between two adjacent ones. (It is possible to tune some Western instruments to play music with quarter tones, but the standard instrument tuned for normal Western symphonic or concert band music would not be capable of playing quarter tones.)
I copied this from a site introducing Eastern music...
would you say that a born again Christian that uses the Eastern type of music is not pleasing God with his songs to Him?
I'm not musically educated, just bored so posting anyway
Geoff Bullock's I Surrender is in G, but has an unresolved feel about it finishing on that last D chord of the chorus. Was playing it once and boss wanted to take it back to the G, I just said something like "yeah whatever" and stopped on guitar on the last D
On the secular side Flash And The Pan's Hey St Peter finishes on a suspended chord. I'm pretty sure Jim Steinman has done it in one or two of his songs too, but off the top of my head I can't think of any at the moment.
I like knowing absolutely nothing about music, means I can like what I like and not have to worry about all the laws saying you can't do that sort of thing
Geoff Bullock's I Surrender is in G, but has an unresolved feel about it finishing on that last D chord of the chorus. Was playing it once and boss wanted to take it back to the G, I just said something like "yeah whatever" and stopped on guitar on the last D
On the secular side Flash And The Pan's Hey St Peter finishes on a suspended chord. I'm pretty sure Jim Steinman has done it in one or two of his songs too, but off the top of my head I can't think of any at the moment.
I like knowing absolutely nothing about music, means I can like what I like and not have to worry about all the laws saying you can't do that sort of thing
Oh, I'm sure there are, but there's no hard or fast rule that can be applied universally to every song. Dissonance may result in edification in one piece, but may fail miserably in another. Again, I suggest that an unedifying piece is so typically because of things other than simply the appearance of a dissonant chord.
Gee, I never though that minoring in music would ever have gotten me anywhere.
I guess I'm leaning towards a peaceful, complete feeling. As much as I like Jimi Hendrix, I don't think his frenetic style, with sevenths & ninths, could be used in a gospel setting. Now there are puhlenty of "nice" songs by the likes of CSN & Carly Simon that are very blasphemous.
Our worship of Christ should reflect a complete salvation, full of promise. My opinion, of course.
One more thing about sevenths. If I'm improvising over a root chord, and I want my band to go to the four chord, all I have to do is hammer on the seventh, the rest of the band will follow me up, because the chord resolves to a fourth. A seventh not in a chord does make it unresolved. That's what I've experiencede, anyway.
Also, I see nothing wrong with any style of music for entertainment purposes, I'm addressing only worship service music.
Our worship of Christ should reflect a complete salvation, full of promise. My opinion, of course.
One more thing about sevenths. If I'm improvising over a root chord, and I want my band to go to the four chord, all I have to do is hammer on the seventh, the rest of the band will follow me up, because the chord resolves to a fourth. A seventh not in a chord does make it unresolved. That's what I've experiencede, anyway.
Also, I see nothing wrong with any style of music for entertainment purposes, I'm addressing only worship service music.
I want to not that you've retracted this statement in a later post.
Thank you.
This in no way refutes that ending on a dissonance is "wrong."
It supports Bro. Curtis' assertion that the tension created by dissonance is not a culturally conditioned response. It is not a "Western" phenomenon, as you countered. It is a universal phenomenon. Whether this is good or evil is a question for theologians—and it is either good or evil, because it is an act and will be called into judgment.
Not every instrument, voice included, prodduces the same exact overtone series. This is why different instruments sound different to us and our voices are unique.
A fact well understood by all musicologists and those who make synthesizers.
What's the point?
This article does not, in my opinion, addres the OP.
But it does undo a lot of the objections raised against the OP.