Question on 2 Corinthians 13:5

[Dave G]

I believe a true "Test" is to both look internally at our "Heart" and externally at our "actions".

I agree.

If I say I believe in my heart then I need to look at my actions to see if they line up with my stated belief. If I"m not living by the faith I proclaim to believe then I don't really have faith.

I also need to look at my actions and determine if I'm doing those things out of some obligation in order to be right with God or religious moral teaching or cultural reasons (to make my wife happy, or so people will not think I'm a jerk) then I don't really have faith. I have religion.

Yet again I agree.
Salvation is a very serious and special thing to have, as not everyone is saved ( Matthew 7:14 ).

Therefore, anyone who has believed on Christ for the forgiveness of their sins really should be examining one's self to see if they have the Spirit of God within them and have truly responded to the word of God from their heart.
Otherwise, we are fooling ourselves into thinking we're saved when we really aren't.

In other words, if the evidences are not there, how can we realistically consider that God Himself has done a work in our lives?
Plenty of people are doing works for God because they think that what they do "counts" towards His favor ( Matthew 7:21-23 )...
But is God doing works through us ( Philippians 2:13 )?

The way I see it, either He saves us by and through His efforts, or we "save" ourselves by and through our own efforts.
In addition, to take a "middle ground" is counter to Romans 11:5-6...
Grace mixed with works nullifies grace.


Either salvation is by grace, or it isn't.

 

[Dave G]

When I realized that 1 John was about evidence of genuine faith it totally changed my understanding of 2 Cor 13:5

There are other places that we can find those evidences, as well.
For example:

The Psalms.
The Proverbs.

John 3:18-21
John 3:36.
John 5:24-25.
John 6:40.
John 6:45.
John 8:47.
John 9:31.
John 10:1-5.
John 10:26-27.
John 11:25-26.

...and many others.

 

[lanman87]

Here I see you saying that our faith, as believers, is what God looks upon in order to decide who to save.
Would you clarify?

How we come to faith, either by Irresistible grace or prevenient grace is an ongoing mystery that Theologians have pondered since at least the time of Augustine. But all agree that nobody just decides to "have faith". Faith is the result of hearing, being convicted by the Holy Spirit, and responding to the truth of the Gospel.

I believe God "chose me before the foundation of the world". I also believe that I responded to the Gospel message "in faith".

 

[Dave G]

How we come to faith, either by Irresistible grace or prevenient grace is an ongoing mystery that Theologians have pondered since at least the time of Augustine.

I'm sorry, sir, but it's not a mystery to me.
Please see Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-6, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and Psalms 65:4.

But all agree that nobody just decides to "have faith".

I think you'd be surprised at just how many, especially nowadays, believe that faith in Jesus Christ is something that all men are capable of apart from a work of God's grace in a person.

Faith is the result of hearing, being convicted by the Holy Spirit, and responding to the truth of the Gospel.

I do not believe that faith is a result of responding to the truth of the Gospel, but that a person responds in faith because they are given "ears to hear" ( Matthew 13:10-11 and many others ).
but I do believe that faith in Christ is a product, or fruit of the Holy Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ).

I believe God "chose me before the foundation of the world". I also believe that I responded to the Gospel message "in faith".

Again I concur.
I also believe that both of these things are involved;

But I believe that Scripture teaches the foundation or reason that I believed...
Because it was given to me by my Father to come to my Saviour, Jesus Christ ( John 6:65 ).


May God bless you greatly in your ongoing studies.

 

[lanman87]

I'm sorry, sir, but it's not a mystery to me.

Yes, but that leaves us with another mystery. Why are some people "chosen" and others not?

 

[Dave G]

Why are some people "chosen" and others not?

Scripture tells us that He makes known to His children the mystery of His will:

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." ( Ephesians 1:3-11 )

But I can tell you that, for the believer, His choice results in salvation being to the praise of the glory of His grace towards us.

 

[Dave G]

@lanman87 :
In the meantime, let us remember this:

" What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:14-24 )

Every time I'm tempted to ask why He chooses one and not another, He takes me back to this passage above.


So, to answer your question more directly,

Those that are chosen are done so for the express purpose that they will glorify him for His grace and mercy forever.
Those that are not will suffer His eternal wrath ( the same as we would if not for Christ ) for their sins.
We are responsible for our sins and rebellion against him, and God decides, out of all of us rebellious sinners, who to save.

That is what I see when I read this and many others.


I wish you well, sir.

 

[lanman87]

So, to answer your question more directly,

Those that are chosen are done so for the express purpose that they will glorify him for His grace and mercy forever.
Those that are not will suffer His eternal wrath ( the same as we would if not for Christ ) for their sins.
We are responsible for our sins and rebellion against him, and God decides, out of all of us rebellious sinners, who to save.

That is what I see when I read this and many others.


I wish you well, sir.

John MacArthur expresses why I consider it a mystery very well.

How His electing grace and predestined purpose can stand beside His love for the world and desire that the gospel be preached to all people, still holding them responsible for their own rejection and condemnation, is a mystery of the divine mind. The Scriptures teach God’s love for the world, His displeasure in judging sinners, His desire for all to hear the gospel and be saved. They also teach that every sinner is incapable yet responsible to believe and will be damned if he does not. Crowning the Scripture’s teaching on this matter is the great truth that God has elected who will believe and saved them before the world began. What mystery!

 

[Yeshua1]

I made it clear that righteousness doesn't come by the law. We aren't saved by anything but faith through grace. Hopefully that is something that all Baptist can agree upon.

My questions is not about being made righteous by anything other than faith in Christ.

My question is about how we know our faith is real? How do we know it is a saving faith?

According to 1 John 3:6 "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him"

Romans 3:20 says For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Romans Chapter 2 is about how the Jews had the law and the gentiles had the "natural Law"(Romans 2:14). Both give us the "knowledge of sin".

Keeping neither the Mosaic Law or the Natural Law "makes us right with God". However, we can't ignore the fact the Word tells us that if we "keep on sinning" we haven't seen Him or know Him.

And yes, we all keep on sinning. It is clear (at least to me) that this is referring to obstinate refusal to admit our sins, confess of our sins, and repent of our sins. John makes it clear in 1 John 1:8-10 that 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Our faith fails the test if we refuse to admit our sins and/or we keep on sinning. 1 John 3:9 goes as far as to say it is impossible to keep practicing sin and be "born of God" No one born of God makes a practice of sinning for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

It would seem to me that if someone isn't struggling against sin, if they keep on practicing sin without either falling under conviction that leads to repentance or discipline then that shows the test of 2 Corinthians 13:5 has failed. He hasn't been born of God, he has never seen Him or knows Him.

I'm not suggestive we start judging other people. But if someone wants to know "Do I pass the test?" it is very clear that "do you keep on sinning" is one of the questions to ask.

Are we trusting totally upon the finished work of Jesus, or do i still have to do something else?

 

[Yeshua1]

John MacArthur expresses why I consider it a mystery very well.

How His electing grace and predestined purpose can stand beside His love for the world and desire that the gospel be preached to all people, still holding them responsible for their own rejection and condemnation, is a mystery of the divine mind. The Scriptures teach God’s love for the world, His displeasure in judging sinners, His desire for all to hear the gospel and be saved. They also teach that every sinner is incapable yet responsible to believe and will be damned if he does not. Crowning the Scripture’s teaching on this matter is the great truth that God has elected who will believe and saved them before the world began. What mystery!

This right here is where all non Calvinist will scream not fair and not right!

 

[Yeshua1]

How we come to faith, either by Irresistible grace or prevenient grace is an ongoing mystery that Theologians have pondered since at least the time of Augustine. But all agree that nobody just decides to "have faith". Faith is the result of hearing, being convicted by the Holy Spirit, and responding to the truth of the Gospel.

I believe God "chose me before the foundation of the world". I also believe that I responded to the Gospel message "in faith".

The faith that God Himself granted you!

 

[lanman87]

Are we trusting totally upon the finished work of Jesus, or do i still have to do something else?

We are trusting totally upon the finished work of Jesus. That trusting in the finished work of Jesus is why we do something else. We don't something else (serve, avoid sin, repent when we do sin, give, worship...) to get saved. We do those things because we have been saved.

 

[lanman87]

This right here is where all non Calvinist will scream not fair and not right!

I don't know if I'm a Calvinist or not. However, I can read the Bible. If the Bible says that "God so Loved the World" (John 3:16), that God "Desires all men to be save" (1 Timothy 2:4) and "not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9) then I believe it.

I also believe it when it says "those He predestined He called, justified, and glorified" (Romans 8:30) and the "He chose us and predestined us" (Ephesians 1:4-5)

How those things work together to relate to who gets saved and who doesn't...Well, I don't know. But both things are equally true.

 

[Yeshua1]

We are trusting totally upon the finished work of Jesus. That trusting in the finished work of Jesus is why we do something else. We don't something else (serve, avoid sin, repent when we do sin, give, worship...) to get saved. We do those things because we have been saved.

Agreed, but many seem to put both together as required to get saved!

 

[Chili1955]

The IFB baptists are famous for their easy believism. Say this prayer and you are saved. No repentance or desire to live a christian life is required.

Could this be a reason why so many of their pastors engage in gross sin?

 

[Chili1955]

Martin Luther said the Christian life is one of Daily repentence. Each day we renew our baptism and crucify our selfs I think it is counter productive to think was I saved X years ago? It seems better to me to say am I saved now? Do I repent and live for Christ now. If you are not living a christian life now, does it really matter if you said a prayer 30 years ago.

I think some of us have grown children who were "saved" at a young age who now do not walk with the Lord. It worries me sick

I pray daily that the Lord will get hold of them.

 

[Judith]

How exactly do we "test ourselves" to see if we are in the faith?

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test? NIV

Examine yourselves to see if your faith is genuine. Test yourselves. Surely you know that Jesus Christ is among you; if not, you have failed the test of genuine faith. NLT

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! ESV

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? KJV

The same chapter answers your question in verse 8; For we (we who are of the faith) can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

True believers cannot be against anything God says. They seek truth regardless the consequences to themselves.