Question on Galatians 5:4 and OSAS

[JackRUS]

Bob.
Peter denied Christ three times according to Scripture. Kindly explain how he was born again again, and provide the Scripture references please as to when and where it happened because surely such an important subject and event would be recorded in Scripture.

Or do you believe that he is in Hell? And if not, why not?

And for bmerr...faith alone and works after salvation explained very well:

http://www.the-highway.com/Justification-Gerstner.html

[ December 09, 2005, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: JackRUS ]

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by JackRUS:
Bob.
Peter denied Christ three times according to Scripture. Kindly explain how he was born again again, and provide the Scripture references please as to when and where it happened because surely such an important subject and event would be recorded in Scripture.

Or do you believe that he is in Hell? And if not, why not?

Is this your way of saying "if you accept God's Word in 2Tim 2 then you have to insist that Peter is in hell"???

2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

Luke 22
32but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

The fall of Peter WAS predicted - Peter's failure is known to all - but he "turned again".

So he is not in hell.

Now as for finding some good way to spin 2Tim 2 so it is not so serious - I don't think you are going to find a way out.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[JackRUS]

Nice post Bob but I'm still waiting for the "but he turned again" Scripture references describing his experiences.

And how does turning get out of your 2Tim 2 interpretation? I'm sorry but I don't see that loophole mentioned by Paul in 2Tim.

 

[BobRyan]

"Peter - Lovesth thou Me"?

John 21:15
[ Jesus Restores Peter NASB ]

So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Feed My lambs.”

See! 2Tim 2 IS true after all!!

How surprising eh?!!

Matthew 10:32
[ Confess Christ Before Men ] “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.

What say you - shall we continue to "interpret" the text as saying what it SAYS or shall we "bend it to the usages of OSAS"??

2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

What say you - shall we continue to "interpret" the text as saying what it SAYS or shall we "bend it to the usages of OSAS"??


In Christ,

Bob

 

[Faith alone]

Faith is faith. Let's not re-define faith to include repentance and works and trurning from sin or any other thing we'd like to add. As was said, those things follow salvation which results from faith alone.

In addition, METANOIA/METANOEW means "to change your mind." It does not mean "to turn from sin," though that may certainly happen as a result of genuine repentance.

FA

 

[BobRyan]

Faith without works is "useless" says James in fact it is "dead".

It is not "dead faith" that causes us to stand!

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

"But you stand by " what?? Faith? is that "useless faith" by which you stand? Or is it "dead faith"? Surely not.

As James says when speaking of that useless dead faith "can that faith save him"??

Do you EVER see that same disparaging statement said of the living faith that James contrasts to dead faith?

No - not in all of scripture!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Me4Him]

Salvation is not tied to "WORKS", before or after, all the "WORKS" after being saved (or claiming) are "Manifestations" whether or not the salvation was "real", "Without me (Jesus) ye can do nothing".

A "tree" (person) is known by their fruit. (Good/Bad)

Once saved, you (soul) are no longer "under the Law" of death for sin, hence "Eternal salvation/Sealed", however, the "flesh" is still under the law, and it will "DIE".

To be saved "WE" must be willing to "Crucify the old man" to destroy the "Body of sin", (Flesh) and live after the "will of the Spirit" rather than the "will of the Flesh". (old man)

However, this "old man" can be resurrected, "IF" we allow him, this is why Paul said, "I die daily".

"IF" we allow the old man to be resurrected, it doesn't cause us to lose salvation, because the "Soul", being "Sealed", is not under the law of death for sin, however God will "Chastise" us for "producing Bad fruit".

And that "Chastisement" can/does include "DEATH" of the flesh.

"Eating/drinking" the lord's supper, "Unworthy" can result in death.

1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (dead)

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, (God only chastise his own)


Physical/Spiritual (whoring after other gods) "Fornication" can result in a "Physical death".

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you,

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Defiling the "TEMPLE OF GOD", which "WE" are, can result in "DEATH".

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

But in all these cases, death is the results of "Chastisement", which God only chastises "HIS OWN", or the saved.

And is every case, it's the "FLESH" that is "destroyed" as "Chastisement", not the "SOUL", it's still "SAVED".

As I said, "Works" can't saved and neither can they "unsave", the law requires "death for sin" and Jesus fulfilled that requirement, the law of death no longer applies to the saved, and "NO WORKS" can "UNDO" Jesus dying for "ALL OUR SINS".

You have to separate the "Soul" from the "flesh" to understand OSAS, For the Soul, the law was satisfied in Jesus's death, but the flesh continues to sin until it's death, sins for which "IT" will "die".

Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver "ME" (soul) from the "body of this death"? (Flesh)

An "OVERCOMER" is one who can sucessfully "DIE DAILY".

 

[BobRyan]

"Denied by Christ" is NEVER the condition of saints under the promise and provision of the Gospel.

"Turned over to Satan" is NEVER the condition of saints under the promise and provision of the Gospel.

"Forgivenes revoked as in Matt 18" is NEVER the condition of saints under the promise and provision of the Gospel.


"Worthless cut out of the vine of Christ and burned up John 15" is NEVER the condition of saints under the promise and provision of the Gospel.


"Cast out of the Vine of Christ Romans 11" is NEVER the condition of saints under the promise and provision of the Gospel.


"Shipwreck of Faith 1 Tim 1" is NEVER the condition of saints under the promise and provision of the Gospel.

Those who imagine salvation and the Gospel to be promising all of this to the saints - live in service to OSAS and are clinging to error in spite of what the scripture says.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Hope of Glory]

In talking about repentance, the English word “repent”, from the Latin word “repoenitet”, simply means “to be sorry”, and that just does not convey the full meaning of the Greek word. John, when preaching his message of repentance (not a message of salvation, which was old news) did not merely want people to be sorry, but to change their attitudes (literally, “after mind”) and he wanted them to change the way they acted. One of the problems is that we do not have a single English word that reproduces the exact meaning of the Greek word.

The Greek does have a word that means to be sorry, which is exactly our English word “repent”, and it is used in the NT in reference to Judas in Matthew 27:3, which says, “Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders”. That’s a different Greek word, “metamelomai”, which simply means “regret”. Judas regretted what he had done, but it was too late to change, wasn’t it? The deed was done.

But, John was a prophet, after many years of prophetic silence, who was bringing a message of “turn around!” That’s why the book of Matthew, which was written to the Jews specifically, emphasizes repentance: They knew better. To the rest of the world, this was something new. They didn’t need to turn back; they had never been on the right track.

Repent! Turn back! That's the message of repentance, not the message of salvation.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
"Denied by Christ" is NEVER the condition of saints under the promise and provision of the Gospel.

"Turned over to Satan" is NEVER the condition of saints under the promise and provision of the Gospel.

"Forgivenes revoked as in Matt 18" is NEVER the condition of saints under the promise and provision of the Gospel.


"Worthless cut out of the vine of Christ and burned up John 15" is NEVER the condition of saints under the promise and provision of the Gospel.


"Cast out of the Vine of Christ Romans 11" is NEVER the condition of saints under the promise and provision of the Gospel.


"Shipwreck of Faith 1 Tim 1" is NEVER the condition of saints under the promise and provision of the Gospel.

Those who imagine salvation and the Gospel to be promising all of this to the saints - live in service to OSAS and are clinging to error in spite of what the scripture says.

In Christ,

Bob

Agreed, but not all those who are saved are called "saints".

 

[BobRyan]

Show me salvation apart from the Gospel then.

Show me those redeemed humans in heaven who are "not saints".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
Repent! Turn back! That's the message of repentance, not the message of salvation.

OK I'll bite!

Luke 24
44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."
45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Acts 2
36 ""Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ this Jesus whom you crucified.''
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "" Brethren, what shall we do?''
38 Peter said to them, "" Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 ""For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.''
40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "" Be saved from this perverse generation!''
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

 

[James_Newman]

That is salvation at the judgment seat of Christ. You are saved eternally by faith, you will be saved in the kingdom by faith + works.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Show me salvation apart from the Gospel then.

Show me those redeemed humans in heaven who are "not saints".

In Christ,

Bob

We never said they were in heaven.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Show me salvation apart from the Gospel then.

In Christ,

Bob

Good question, but let's "turn it around" and ask:

"Show me salvation apart from Jesus "Taking away" sin by his death.

"Forgiveness" won't "take away sin",

Neither will "Repentance",

OT saints made "Sacrifices" and their sin were "Forgiven", but not "taken away".

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The "LAW" requires a "DEATH" for each and every sin, one offence, you're guilty of all.

"How many times will Jesus have to die to "take away", "ALL YOUR SINS" and keep you saved"???

 

[BobRyan]

"Show me salvation apart from Jesus "Taking away" sin by his death.

"Forgiveness" won't "take away sin",

Forgiveness is only possible because of the death of Christ. You are spliting and dividing where only union and unity exists.

"Through Christ" the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed BECAUSE in Christ there is the payment for sins that God's forgiveness requires.

If God was simply going to burn His Law and forgive WITHOUT the penalty demanded being paid - He could have done that WITHOUT Christ. And He never did.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"How many times will Jesus have to die to "take away", "ALL YOUR SINS" and keep you saved"???

Trick question.

The Bible shows us "Forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18. It can do this (Matt 18 written POST cross as part of Christ's Matt 28 command "GO and teach them ALL THAT I HAVE commanded you") - because God is NOT boxed in the way you seem to imagine.

You have confused the completed process of Lev 16 Atonement - with justification. God's offer of payment is predicated as HE describes it in Matt 18 and IS revokable on the very basis HE defines in Matt 18 and in Romans 2 and in Ezek 18 and in Heb 6:1-8 and in 2 Tim 2:4-8 and in ...

Though you may suppose that there is a "trick" to getting God to step back from those warnings -- they remain, they are solid, they are real, they are literal. Forgiveness revoked is there because Justification IS NOT the completed Lev 16 process of Atonement.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Christ dies for our sins as the "Atoning Sacrifice for Our sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2 NIV.

In Lev 16 the Atoning Sacrifice occurs at the point where the Lord's Goat "called the Goat of THE Sin offering" is slain. But the slaying of the goat is NOT the end of the process of Atonement.

In Lev 16 the process of Atonement is SHOWN to include the UNIQUE role of Christ as High Priest. The role we see Him taking on AFTER the Cross in Heb 7-10.

In that post-cross work of Christ as High Priest there is included the post-cross post-Roman-Empire judgment of Daniel 2 (also portrayed in 2Cor 5:8-9 and in Romans 2:11-16 and Rev 14:7-8)

In that judgment the rule of Christ in Matt 7 "By their fruits you shall know them" and Christ in His role as High Priest is established as the judge of the "living and the dead".

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
"How many times will Jesus have to die to "take away", "ALL YOUR SINS" and keep you saved"???

Trick question.

The Bible shows us "Forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18. It can do this (Matt 18 written POST cross as part of Christ's Matt 28 command "GO and teach them ALL THAT I HAVE commanded you") - because God is NOT boxed in the way you seem to imagine.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]OK, "WHAT SIN" will cause God to "revoke" Salvation??

With God, sin is sin, One sin, Big/small, is still sin, if your're guilty of one, You're guilty of all.

"WHO STOPS SINNING AFTER BEING SAVED"???

"NONE".

"IF" all sin is "equal", why would God "revoke" my salvation for a sin and not your salvation for a sin???

"IF" God "revoked" one salvation for sin, would he not have to revoke salvation for all who sin.


There is a "sin unto death", but what is that "SIN", "Rebellion", and what dies, flesh or Soul????

1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

(Eating/drinking "lord's supper", Unworthy, Fornification, Rebellion)

17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

We continues to sin, both ignorantly/willfully, but it doesn't cause our "Spiritual death", only the death of our flesh.

Remember, every "jot/title" (sin) owed, will be paid, either by Jesus or the person. (their flesh and Soul)

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; (not under the law, debt paid in full, past, present, future)

but "HE" (Jesus) that is begotten of God keepeth "HIMSELF",(body of Christ=Church) and that wicked one toucheth him not. (not prevail against "HIS BODY", Church)

The part Jesus saves (Soul) is "SEALED" by the fact Jesus paid for "ALL IT'S SINS",

IT SINNETH NOT

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

God demands that we be "PERFECT", but only through Jesus can our Soul be "PERFECT", never the flesh, and once "IN CHRIST",

Jesus doesn't Amputate "body parts".

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Christ dies for our sins as the "Atoning Sacrifice for Our sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2 NIV.

In Lev 16 the Atoning Sacrifice occurs at the point where the Lord's Goat "called the Goat of THE Sin offering" is slain. But the slaying of the goat is NOT the end of the process of Atonement.

The "GOAT OF SIN"...Sacrificed".. represented the "BODY OF FLESH", we sacrifice our "Goat" when we "Crucify the flesh" (old man).

On the Cross, Jesus "BECAME SIN" his "BODY" became a "GOAT OF SIN" sacrificed "FOR SIN", in other words he became the "SCAPEGOAT".

"BY HIS STRIPES" Jesus made "ATONEMENT" with God, however Israel rejected Jesus, and God uses the AC as a "ROD" to inflict "STRIPES" on their "FLESH" (murder/abuse) as "Chastisement",

but the "BODY OF CHRIST" (Jesus) has already suffered "Stripes" for the "Church, therefore the Church will "LITERALLY PASSOVER (pre trib rapture) the trib period of Chastisement.

This is why Jesus is called the "PASSOVER LAMB".

The Church only "SPIRITUALLY" crucifies the "OLD GOAT", while Israel will have to "LITERALLY" crucify the "OLD GOAT", to make "ATONEMENT", if they chose to be saved.

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. (Physical Stripes)

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

[JackRUS]

BBob.
You wrote:

"Peter - Lovesth thou Me"?

John 21:15
[ Jesus Restores Peter NASB ]

So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Feed My lambs.”

See! 2Tim 2 IS true after all!!

How surprising eh?!!

Are you saying that Peter was lost before that happened? Then how do you explain this a full chapter before?:

"And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:" John 20:22

Where do you see Jesus say "Except of course Peter who lost his salvation." in that chapter?