Question on Reformed Theology

[Revmitchell]

I was asked this question today, I thought it would be a good discussion:

Hey I`m struggling a lot with the Gospel. I`ve recently started reading the bible and going to church [had been an atheist up until now] and ever since reading about calvinism, i feel completely discouraged. I`m paranoid now that my attempt to become a christian is futile- especially since if God did appoint me, this wouldn`t be such a struggle. I wouldn`t be having such a hard time believing. It would be `irresistable` as it`s been called. So should I give up? Stop reading the bible? Stop going to church? The gospel is obviously not meant to save, rather to....I guess...show people how and that they`re saved? Should I just sit back and see if God ends up picking me? This all feels very nihilistic. I even started sinning again today just out of anger at it all. And didn`t feel that much remorse, which apparently is a sign of a `reprobate`.I don`t know if I`m doomed or not an it`s driving me crazy. Should I just sit back and wait for God? Continue living the way I am?

Based on scripture, I`d have to agree that four point calvinism seems to be the most true. Nonetheless, it is still entirely discouraging to me. I guess `encouragement` is futile, too, though.

Advice would be appreciated (if it advice would even do anything at all)

Sorry. I`m not trying to offend you. But it`s all just really confusing/depressing me.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I was asked this question today, I thought it would be a good discussion:

The gospel is good newss not bad news and if a teaching is depressing it most likely is a faulty teaching. Guess that makes this fellow's statement the best argument against 4 point Calvinism that I have seen.

Christ brings freedom and joy, not doubt and depression.

Christ brings us life in abundance, not slavery to doubt.

Christ came to set us free, not to bind us in fear.

 

[Jim1999]

The fact that he is enquiring about God and salvation, is evidence that he is not doomed. The gospel is for him. We don't know who the elect are until after the fact.

In theology we try to understand who God is and how He acts. There is another eernal line which only meets in infinity. It is the human line. Here it is where we live and the Lord says, Believe on the Lord Jesus and you SHALL be saved.......All is not futile, and the doctrines remain so, but are stored in the correct cabinet.

Cheers, and all the best in counsel,

Jim

PS. Even Spurgeon quipped: Lord, save the elect and elect some more.

 

[webdog]

I would tell him to throw out the "system", and dig into the Word to see what it says...not what man says, however, it does sound more like he's looking for a way out of following Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

I would tell him to throw out the "system", and dig into the Word to see what it says...not what man says, however, it does sound more like he's looking for a way out of following Christ.

Perhaps he did not give it 60 days as Warren suggested.

Seriously if the man is interested in the things of God that is a good sign. I might also add that he probably did not start sinning again, he never stopped though he may have stopped some particular sins.

I am a strong believer in the Doctrines of Grace, the sovereignty of God in Salvation, or if some want to call it Calvinism that is OK. However I believe these are doctrines for the Church, not for the unredeemed. I like what Jim1999 said, so with or without permission I will repeat it..

"The fact that he is enquiring about God and salvation, is evidence that he is not doomed. The gospel is for him. We don't know who the elect are until after the fact.

In theology we try to understand who God is and how He acts. There is another eternal line which only meets in infinity. It is the human line. Here it is where we live and the Lord says, Believe on the Lord Jesus and you SHALL be saved.......All is not futile, and the doctrines remain so, but are stored in the correct cabinet."

 

[annsni]

Romans 10:13 "For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.""

If one is calling on the Lord, the Lord has called him. One who is not called by God will desire to be one of His.

 

[canadyjd]

The gospel is good newss not bad news and if a teaching is depressing it most likely is a faulty teaching. Guess that makes this fellow's statement the best argument against 4 point Calvinism that I have seen.

Christ brings freedom and joy, not doubt and depression.

Christ brings us life in abundance, not slavery to doubt.

Christ came to set us free, not to bind us in fear.

So....your "best argument" is to let someone who is admittedly unsaved define the best way to understand scripture?

No thank you.

peace to youraying:

 

[Pastor Larry]

Based on scripture, I`d have to agree that four point calvinism seems to be the most true.

It is interesting that a recent convert who was previously an atheist studies the Bible and concludes that Calvinism is the most true. I guess it goes to show that to be an Arminian one has to ignore the Bible.

The gospel is good newss not bad news and if a teaching is depressing it most likely is a faulty teaching.

Or it could be a teaching designed to bring depression, such as teaching about the hopelessness of sin. Or it could be teaching that is filtered through a finite and depraved mind. Or it could be something that is wrongly taught.

I don't think we should judge truth by psychological responses to it. Do you?

Guess that makes this fellow's statement the best argument against 4 point Calvinism that I have seen.

I find Calvinism to be the most encouraging and uplifting truth of the Bible. By your standard, that makes my statement the best argument for Calvinism you have ever seen. But it's not a good argument. A belief must be judged by Scripture, not by psychological responses.

 

[Revmitchell]

So....your "best argument" is to let someone who is admittedly unsaved define the best way to understand scripture?

No thank you.

peace to youraying:

When personal experience overrides scripture then salvation is relative.

 

[Salamander]

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

How can any calvinst disagree with this promise of God? I'll tell you: by taking God's word and manipulating it to fit his understanding.

Was this person seeking God with all his heart? I don't know except he would have been another sinner seeking the Saviour seeking him! They will ultimately meet as the word of God says. He will find the Lord looking for him! As long as he seeks him with all his heart!

 

[Jim1999]

Salamander: I am an absolute calvinist, and I did not adjust the scriptures to bring this chap the full distance to Christ. No rightly schooled calvinist would deny the gospel.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Pastor Larry]

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

How can any calvinst disagree with this promise of God? I'll tell you: by taking God's word and manipulating it to fit his understanding.

If a Calvinist disagreed with that verse, it would certainly be by taking God's word and manipulating it to fit his understanding. But let me ask you this: Which Calvinists disagree with this verse? I don't know of any.

 

[J.D.]

Reformed, not reformed - doesn't matter. Your friend is going to have to decide whether he is going to let the Bible define who God is, or just continue with his own preconceived notions. Sooner or later, we all get wounded against the rock wall of God's immutability.

 

[annsni]

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

How can any calvinst disagree with this promise of God? I'll tell you: by taking God's word and manipulating it to fit his understanding.

Why is he seeking? Is he seeking because of the goodness of his heart?

I believe Scripture tells us he's searching because God has called him. "Ye shall seek me" - sounds pretty definitive to me. No if's, and's or but's.

 

[webdog]

Why is he seeking? Is he seeking because of the goodness of his heart?

I believe Scripture tells us he's searching because God has called him. "Ye shall seek me" - sounds pretty definitive to me. No if's, and's or but's.

Not because of the goodness of his heart, but because Jesus' promise that if He be lifted up He would draw all men.

 

[J.D.]

Spurgeon:

Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul—when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man—that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God.

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[J.D.]

Spurgeon continues:

One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment—I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."

 

[webdog]

Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God.

So all of our new births are done defectively...hmmm.

 

[J.D.]

So all of our new births are done defectively...hmmm.

Not "defectively", but we are born as infants:

"...as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,..."

 

[Allan]

Reformed, not reformed - doesn't matter. Your friend is going to have to decide whether he is going to let the Bible define who God is, or just continue with his own preconceived notions. Sooner or later, we all get wounded against the rock wall of God's immutability.

You can't disagree with that!

I think the problem this person is having is the same problem in most churches today and one of the number one reasons most people stay babes. There is no one mentoring them. Helping them take small chunks of scripture and understanding it, setting it to the lives, and learning to depend on Christ Jesus our Lord. There is seldom any disciple-making in churches today (the one-on-one kind) and this sounds like the cry of one who needs such.