Question on wine?

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

One think on the topic, Jordan, it sounds like you are learning to think for yourself and study the Word of God for what it really says. Having been reared in an IFB environment I applaud you for growing in faith. This is just one of many topics where you are going to learn that the teaching of your youth may have been simplified and may not match the Bible. I know I learned that lesson rather painfully.

Now off the topic, a guy at work was complaining to me the other day because another employee kept inviting him to church and he did not want to go. I know both of these men and the one doing the inviting is a very Independent IFBer and can be a bit pushy with his faith. The other man did not grow up in a Christian home and is saved now and looking for a church home for his family. They are attending regularly now, but not at a Baptist church.

Anyway – I told him, “Well tell [bubba1] (not his real name) you will come visit his church on one condition. Tell him you won’t go to any of those churches that use fake wine for the communion. Ask him how you can expect them to preach the real Jesus if they serve fake wine?”

Then I sat back and waited for the show to begin. No [bubba2] (also not his real name) did not go through with it, he knew better.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

One think on the topic, Jordan, it sounds like you are learning to think for yourself and study the Word of God for what it really says. Having been reared in an IFB environment I applaud you for growing in faith. This is just one of many topics where you are going to learn that the teaching of your youth may have been simplified and may not match the Bible. I know I learned that lesson rather painfully.

Now off the topic, a guy at work was complaining to me the other day because another employee kept inviting him to church and he did not want to go. I know both of these men and the one doing the inviting is a very Independent IFBer and can be a bit pushy with his faith. The other man did not grow up in a Christian home and is saved now and looking for a church home for his family. They are attending regularly now, but not at a Baptist church.

Anyway – I told him, “Well tell [bubba1] (not his real name) you will come visit his church on one condition. Tell him you won’t go to any of those churches that use fake wine for the communion. Ask him how you can expect them to preach the real Jesus if they serve fake wine?”

Then I sat back and waited for the show to begin. No [bubba2] (also not his real name) did not go through with it, he knew better.

How can we accept that it is indeed fermented wine when the bible also says this:
Hab 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

 

[annsni]

How can we accept that it is indeed fermented wine when the bible also says this:
Hab 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

Easy - notice the drunken part? It's fermented. Just like so many other blessings that God has given us, we have the ability to misuse it badly. Sex is another area that can be good (in the confines of the marriage bed) or bad (outside of a dedicated marriage). It's not that sex is bad - it's the situations in which we use or misuse it.

 

[preachinjesus]

Couple of points that need to be understood in order to understand that is meant by "wine" in the bible.

In bible times there was not "hard liquor." Distillation of hard liquor did not come about until the middle ages.

When we see wine being drunk in the bible it was real, alcohol containing wine. However, the people did not drink it straight. They mixed it with water at the rate of between 4 and 10 parts water to 1 part wine. This not only prevented intoxication, the alcohol in the wine also purified the water.

When wine was drunk without diluting it in water it was called "strong drink" (see various references in the Old Testament).

The miracle at the wedding of Cana was that Jesus made mixed wine. That is, wine mixed with water (note it was made in the water pots). What the passage is saying is that the wine/water that Jesus made was far superior to that made by the vintner and used at the wedding. Everything that Jesus does is far superior to what man can do.

Most of this is incorrect.

 

[preachinjesus]

So if this is true, than drinking alcohol is acceptable? how much alcohol is considered too much?

There's a fine line (that gets fuzzy) between sobriety and drunkenness.

Here's another thought, in the old testament the priesthood was required to abstain from wine, Should not we as the new testament priesthood also abstain?

Be careful equating the OT priesthood with the NT ordained ministry. The two aren't the same and the implications from equating them are difficult.

 

[Baptist Believer]

It's called "History." Try it. You might like it.

That's a nice snappy answer, but it is hardly justification for misrepresenting scripture. Your description of the first miracle of Jesus from John 2 that claims it is mixed wine, it was made in the water pots, etc. is completely without any scriptural basis.

 

[TCassidy]

Good example of why I seldom post on these forums anymore.

FACT: Distillation of beverage alcohol did not begin until the Middle Ages, therefore the "strong drink" of the bible could NOT refer to distilled spirits. History tells us it was wine drunk straight without being mixed with water.

FACT: Water treated by filtration and addition of chlorine to kill bacteria, especially amoeba, which causes amoebic dysentery which is often fatal, was not available in bible times.

FACT: Due to prohibitions against drunkenness, Jews, and the early Christians, diluted their wine by 3-1 to 10-1 to avoid drunkenness.

FACT: Those same Jews and Christians used wine to kill the amoeba and other bacteria found in untreated water.

FACT: The water pots were used for washing of the hands and feet. The hands because they were used to direct the natural bodily process of elimination, and the feet because walking barefoot or with open sandals exposed the skin to the products of human and animal elimination. This is not about the ceremonial washing prior to entering the Temple. This is about simple hygiene.

FACT: There were 6 water pots each holding from 20 to 30 GALLONS. That is a total of 120 - 160 GALLONS of wine! That equates to 1,200 pints.

FACT: Jesus (and the bible) condemns drunkenness so Jesus would NOT have encouraged sin, nor would he have broken the Law regarding a prohibition against "strong drink."

Conclusion: Therefore, the wine Jesus made was the commonly used beverage of that time, wine mixed with water at a ratio of from 3-1 to 10-1.

 

[evangelist6589]

Oh no not this topic again!

just read this today

Numbers 6:20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.

Strongs says this:ן
yayin
yah'-yin
From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].

I've also been reading John chapter 2 over and over again this month.

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Zodhiates says that the word wine there in the greek implies intoxication.
also I looked up the phrase have well drunk and this is the definition I've gotten from Strongs

μεθύω
methuō
meth-oo'-o
From another form of G3178; to drink to intoxication, that is, get drunk: - drink well, make (be) drunk (-en).

This is also the same word used in
Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Based on that wouldn't one have to conclude that Jesus did indeed create fermented wine?

Pro 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Pro 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

It starts off with tarry long at the wine, could this possibly be implying the over consumption of it?

I'm just wondering and trying to think through this without presuppositions and just look at it textually and contextually.

Is there something I'm not seeing?

What are your thoughts?

Disclaimer:at this point in time I do not believe drinking any amount of alcohol for the purpose of recreation i acceptable I am just starting to ponder this now.

 

[padredurand]

Let me summarize the rest of this thread for you.

It was fermented.

No it wasn't.​

Yes it was.

You don't know what you're talking about.​

Yes I do. YOU don't know what You are talking about.

Jesus didn't drink fermented wine.​

Yes He did.

It will lead to dancing.​

Finally, we agree on something.

Calvin drank fermented wine.​

No he did not.

Women should not wear pants.​

It is Rick Warren's fault.

Rick Warren drinks wine? Do you have a citation for that or are you starting unsubstantiated rumors?​

The Greek word is welchs. Everybody knows welchs is translated grape juice.

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[webdog]

Good example of why I seldom post on these forums anymore.

FACT: Distillation of beverage alcohol did not begin until the Middle Ages, therefore the "strong drink" of the bible could NOT refer to distilled spirits. History tells us it was wine drunk straight without being mixed with water.

FACT: Water treated by filtration and addition of chlorine to kill bacteria, especially amoeba, which causes amoebic dysentery which is often fatal, was not available in bible times.

FACT: Due to prohibitions against drunkenness, Jews, and the early Christians, diluted their wine by 3-1 to 10-1 to avoid drunkenness.

FACT: Those same Jews and Christians used wine to kill the amoeba and other bacteria found in untreated water.

FACT: The water pots were used for washing of the hands and feet. The hands because they were used to direct the natural bodily process of elimination, and the feet because walking barefoot or with open sandals exposed the skin to the products of human and animal elimination. This is not about the ceremonial washing prior to entering the Temple. This is about simple hygiene.

FACT: There were 6 water pots each holding from 20 to 30 GALLONS. That is a total of 120 - 160 GALLONS of wine! That equates to 1,200 pints.

FACT: Jesus (and the bible) condemns drunkenness so Jesus would NOT have encouraged sin, nor would he have broken the Law regarding a prohibition against "strong drink."

Conclusion: Therefore, the wine Jesus made was the commonly used beverage of that time, wine mixed with water at a ratio of from 3-1 to 10-1.

So we just take your word for it I suppose. You need to get most of your FACTS straight.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

How can we accept that it is indeed fermented wine when the bible also says this:
Hab 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

Not sure exactly what you are asking here Jordan. Yes it was indeed fermented. Yes it is really bad to get your neighbor drunk so you can "look on their nakedness" (most of the time you find this phrase in scripture we are talking about sexual relations). I am pretty sure that did not happen in Cana. OK, I am completely sure.

 

[TCassidy]

Let me summarize the rest of this thread for you.

It was fermented.

No it wasn't.​

Yes it was.

You don't know what you're talking about.​

Yes I do. YOU don't know what You are talking about.

Jesus didn't drink fermented wine.​

Yes He did.

It will lead to dancing.​

Finally, we agree on something.

Calvin drank fermented wine.​

No he did not.

Women should not wear pants.​

It is Rick Warren's fault.

Rick Warren drinks wine? Do you have a citation for that or are you starting unsubstantiated rumors?​

The Greek word is welchs. Everybody knows welchs is translated grape juice.

:smilewinkgrin:

Now wait a minute. Is it Calvin's fault or Warren's fault? Or was it Thomas Welch's fault? Whose fault is it, anyway? :thumbs:

 

[padredurand]

Now wait a minute. Is it Calvin's fault or Warren's fault? Or was it Thomas Welch's fault? Whose fault is it, anyway? :thumbs:

As I said in my previous post - YES! I didn't actually say yes in my previous post but I'm sure somebody will put words in my mouth. People that consume alcohol will do that. They also kick puppies.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Good example of why I seldom post on these forums anymore.

Actually, this is a very good example of why I often get frustrated with my fellow Baptists. The internet document where you are getting your “facts” is not factual.

FACT: Distillation of beverage alcohol did not begin until the Middle Ages, therefore the "strong drink" of the bible could NOT refer to distilled spirits. History tells us it was wine drunk straight without being mixed with water.

I don’t know anywhere where “history tells us” any such thing. “Strong drink” in the Bible was likely a category of alcoholic beverages made from grains, such as beers and other concoctions that were very common in the ancient world.

FACT: Due to prohibitions against drunkenness, Jews, and the early Christians, diluted their wine by 3-1 to 10-1 to avoid drunkenness.

The ancients DID often dilute their wine, but not necessarily all the time.

FACT: The water pots were used for washing of the hands and feet. The hands because they were used to direct the natural bodily process of elimination, and the feet because walking barefoot or with open sandals exposed the skin to the products of human and animal elimination. This is not about the ceremonial washing prior to entering the Temple. This is about simple hygiene.

That sounds good EXCEPT the scripture specifically mentions that the water pots we are discussing were ceremonial washings (this is stated plainly in John 2:6). Did you even go back to review the passage?

FACT: There were 6 water pots each holding from 20 to 30 GALLONS. That is a total of 120 - 160 GALLONS of wine! That equates to 1,200 pints.

As I pointed out before, I do not think the plain meaning of the Greek lends itself to teaching that the water in the water pots was changed to wine. Instead, the wine came from the well (or was transformed in the bucket as it was being drawn).

FACT: Jesus (and the bible) condemns drunkenness so Jesus would NOT have encouraged sin, nor would he have broken the Law regarding a prohibition against "strong drink."

Providing wine is different from “encouraging sin.” Moreover, there is not prohibition against “strong drink” in the scriptures except for kings and priests at times where they are conducting their duties. Deuteronomy 14:26 specifically mentions buying “strong drink” as enjoying it as an act of worship.

Conclusion: Therefore, the wine Jesus made was the commonly used beverage of that time, wine mixed with water at a ratio of from 3-1 to 10-1.

Actually, the master of the feast remarked that the wine was uncommon (the best), so I think your assumption is very weak in that regard. It was definitely not common in nature. And since most of your “facts” are wrong, your conclusion is not only speculative, but also very likely wrong. Moreover, you have yet to provide positive evidence for your position.