Question women and dresses

[PreachTREE]

Originally posted by Petrel:
Ooh, the irony!

Johnv was telling about an eyewitness account of several churches.

eyewitness account? Petrel stop speaking for JohnV. He did not go to PNG or Ecuador.

 

[Petrel]

His wife's professor did, did you not read the post?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by PreachTREE:
eyewitness account? Petrel stop speaking for JohnV. He did not go to PNG or Ecuador.

I was relaying to you an eyewitness account from someone I knew. That person was my wife's college professor who was a missionary prior to being a college prof. I knew him personally, though I did not study under him.

 

[PreachTREE]

Originally posted by Johnv:

We do this by changing our hearts, not changing someone else's mode of dress to conform to our hearts.

Thanks for describing toleration. People are confused because they change their hearts. Let Christ change your heart not yourselves.

 

[RockRambler]

Am I'm the only one that doesn't notice women in bathing suits at the beach???? It is part of the culture on the beach, and I never think about who's wearing what.

Yes a bikini in church would be distracting here on dry land. But at the beach or on a cruise ship, I never think about it.

 

[PreachTREE]

someone said that someone said that someone said. anyways, we are going off topic.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by RockRambler:
Am I'm the only one that doesn't notice women in bathing suits at the beach????

No, you are not the only one. I don't notice. At least, not any more than I would notice a baseball cap or other benign article of attire. When someone does go by in an occaisional overly skimpy one (not very often), then I look elsewhere out of respect for myself and my wife. My wife has never had an ocaision to think I have a wandering eye, and we go to the beach somewhat often.

I really do think that if a man is looking at women lustfully, the problem is with the man. I will never, never, try to blame a woman for my sinful nature. That's the same as a homosexual blaming his desires on genetics or physiology.

Originally posted by PreachTREE:
someone said that someone said that someone said. anyways, we are going off topic.

Translation: You're going ignore the facts of the post because you can't argue it with scripture or logic. With western cultural standards, yes. But scripure and logic, no.

[ August 18, 2005, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

[PreachTREE]

Why does culture have so much weight on you? Is culture your authority?
Let me say again:

when we analyze a culture and say that certain practices are ok simply because it is their custom, we are wrong. who is the authority of these jungle tribes? Paganism is. Not God. Will it take time for these certain cultures to adjust? yes! But to simply participate in their culture would be to tolerate it.

 

[PreachTREE]

When people are saved, it is our job to teach them. Not what western culture says but what Scripture does.

Scripture? I've showed you where God covered Adam and Eve.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by PreachTREE:
Why does culture have so much weight on you? Is culture your authority?

You're attempting to telll me that a bathing suit is immodest, based on western cultural principles. You have faild to make your point using biblical principles.

 

[Petrel]

Originally posted by PreachTREE:
Let me say again:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> when we analyze a culture and say that certain practices are ok simply because it is their custom, we are wrong. who is the authority of these jungle tribes? Paganism is. Not God. Will it take time for these certain cultures to adjust? yes! But to simply participate in their culture would be to tolerate it.

</font>[/QUOTE]Let me say again:

Prove from the Bible that your standard of dress is the only right one and then we can talk.

Right now you're trying to enforce your own arbitrary standard of dress over their equally arbitrary one.

 

[PreachTREE]

John 21:7 says,"Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.

What is the principle? Cover yourself up.

 

[patrick]

I really think modesty is implied thru out the Bible. However, I don't see a dress code laid out for men or women. God clothed Adam and Eve. It was with animal skins. So, going on that referance should we wear only animal skins.

Clothing will always be debated. The original thought of this thread was women and dresses. We have dived in to a swirling whirlpool of personal thoughts and ideas. I feel like we miss the point.

Does the clothing cover what it needs to cover? My youth know, I have a dresscode for them to follow. When we are on a trip they break it, they change clothes. there is a fine line between discernament and nit picking.

 

[PreachTREE]

Originally posted by patrick:
So, going on that referance should we wear only animal skins.

NO. We have concluded that fashion changes. The issue now is if modesty does. If God wanted to put a Mall in the Garden of Eden so that Adam and Eve could shop, He could have but he didnt. God used animal skins to cover them.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by PreachTREE:
The issue now is if modesty does.

That's never been an issue. We've continually been in agreement that modesty does not change. However, what qualifies as modesty has changed over time, and it also varies from culture to culture (and many of those cultures are Christian.

God used animal skins to cover them.

You miss the point of the story. Adam and Eve were the only two people aroung, and they were married. There was no need to cover their nudity from each other (my wife and I see each other nude every day, and we're not embarrased about it). In the Hebrew, God is hiding their revealed deception which was exposed and resulted in shame, not their nudity per se. He covered them because they were incapable of covering themselves.

It makes no sense that Adam and Even would have to be covered from each other's nudity.

 

[Helen]

John, about six years ago my then 13 year old daughter and I were on a beach in Australia with a girlfriend of mine. About a hundred yards down the beach, a man came down, spread out his towel, and undressed fully, then lay down naked under the sun.

Because it was allowable there, was he therefore modest? Or exempt from any issues of modesty morally?

My daughter was repulsed and disgusted.

You see, it is not a matter of what is allowed in any particular culture at any particular time or place, but of what is right and good. Offending others is not right. It doesn't matter if it is while you are doing or wearing or saying something that is 'allowed.' For a Christian that is not the point at all. The point for us is that we are to live our lives above reproach and not to spend them defending our misuse of our liberties.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Helen:
Because it was allowable there, was he therefore modest? Or exempt from any issues of modesty morally?

You'd have to ask an Australian. It's not socially appropriate by our US standards. Is it immodest? In order to qualify as immodest, it would have to have been an excessive about of sexual attention brought to him. It appears that the only attention paid to it was by you and your daughter, and you did not mention whether the attention was sexual in nature.

My suggestion next time would be to check out the local customs first. You clearly did not know that this was the norm among them. That is not the man's fault, and I don't blame you either. It was simply an ovesight.

Whenever one travels, especially to a foreign country, you should inquire about the local customs. Making the "OK" sign in Brazil is an offensive gesture. Christians there are admonished to refrain from using it. Should Christians here therefore be admonished from using it here? Or does the scriptural rule for abusive language (which includes gestres) change?

 

[Helen]

Well, you have just defined nakedness as modest under certain circumstances, John. I think that tells us enough. You and the Bible are definitely at odds on this one!

 

[RockRambler]

Offending others is not right. It doesn't matter if it is while you are doing or wearing or saying something that is 'allowed.' For a Christian that is not the point at all. The point for us is that we are to live our lives above reproach and not to spend them defending our misuse of our liberties.

Then please make sure that you cover completely up whenever you go out. There are many Islamic men in our society now who are offended if a woman shows anything between her nose and her feet. So by this reasoning all women should be covered up, because you might offend any Islamic men that may be present.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Helen:
Well, you have just defined nakedness as modest under certain circumstances, John. I think that tells us enough. You and the Bible are definitely at odds on this one!

Am I? How does scripture define immodest? You know very well that scripture does not define immodest as simply being nude.

However, that's completely a side issue. You have yet to tell me what was immodest about the church service on the beach.