Questions about calvinism

[Martin]

I have many friends who call themselves Calvinists or Calvinistic (although I think ignorantly) who do not believe in either Double Predestination, Limited Atonement, or Monergism.

==There are Calvinists who deny double predestination, in fact, I don't know many Calvinists who believe in double predestination. Now I, like many, do believe in preterition (the passing by, or omitting of the non-elect). Many Calvinists also deny limited atonement. Myself, I tend to think the basic idea behind particular atonement is Biblical. However a Calvinist who denies monergism? That just does not calculate. That is like a synergist who believes in Divine election. Anyone who is not a monergist is not a calvinist.

I think that if God has elected certain people to be saved, Double Predestination must be true.

==I don't agree. Double Predesination is the idea that some were predestined to hell from all eternity. I don't believe the Bible teaches that idea. What the Bible does teach, in my view, is that God elects people based on His grace and leaves the rest in their sin (ie...their natural course). They make their own choices and God allows them to procede in their choices. The final result of their choices is hell. In His grace, however, God elects to save some. Nobody deserves salvation and nobody can complain that they have been unjustly sentenced to hell. Everyone deserves hell and, apart from grace, everyone would get hell.

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

I know a guy who wants to deny the word election is even in the bible. Once we see it is there, then we have to deal with the meaning of the original greek word. After that there can be no question what God is saying. He choses, we do not.
Jn 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you

Context! Context! Context!

Who did He choose and for what purpose?

He is speaking to the Apostles who were saved disciples of John the Baptist when He called/chose them to be His Apostles. The chosing here is vocational, not salvational.

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

==There are Calvinists who deny double predestination, in fact, I don't know many Calvinists who believe in double predestination. Now I, like many, do believe in preterition (the passing by, or omitting of the non-elect). Many Calvinists also deny limited atonement. Myself, I tend to think the basic idea behind particular atonement is Biblical. However a Calvinist who denies monergism? That just does not calculate. That is like a synergist who believes in Divine election. Anyone who is not a monergist is not a calvinist.



==I don't agree. Double Predesination is the idea that some were predestined to hell from all eternity. I don't believe the Bible teaches that idea. What the Bible does teach, in my view, is that God elects people based on His grace and leaves the rest in their sin (ie...their natural course). They make their own choices and God allows them to procede in their choices. The final result of their choices is hell. In His grace, however, God elects to save some. Nobody deserves salvation and nobody can complain that they have been unjustly sentenced to hell. Everyone deserves hell and, apart from grace, everyone would get hell.

Well Brother Martin,

At least I know now how you reconcile these issues. In fact, I would agree with some of it. At the same time, you must agree that if Monergism is true, there are particular individuals God Does NOT allow "them to procede in their choices." The lost have freedom of will, except to believe, but the elect have no freedom of will. They are saved by force (Monergism, they have no say in the matter).

 

[Martin]

Context! Context! Context!

Who did He choose and for what purpose?

He is speaking to the Apostles who were saved disciples of John the Baptist when He called/chose them to be His Apostles. The chosing here is vocational, not salvational.

I will strongly disagree with your assertion above. The Word of the Lord states:

"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My Name He may give to you" -John 15:16

You say this entire verse is vocational and not salvational. Yet it seems that the first part of the verse is salvational and the second part of the verse is vocational. The first part states that Christ choose believers, not just the disciples, out of the world (see also John 15:19, 17:2,6,9,24, etc). Keep in mind that believers today are also a chosen people (1Pet 2:9, Col 3:12, etc). God choosing is a theme that goes throughout the entire Bible. It is a dividing out, Jesus has pulled people from the world to be His own. The Father has given them to Jesus and they will come to Jesus (Jn 6:37). The result of that is that they would go and bear fruit. Christ indeed chose His disciples, but He also chosen all true believers (Jn 17:20).

 

[Martin]

Well Brother Martin,

At least I know now how you reconcile these issues. In fact, I would agree with some of it. At the same time, you must agree that if Monergism is true, there are particular individuals God Does NOT allow "them to procede in their choices." The lost have freedom of will, except to believe,

==They have the freedom to believe, but they won't. No human, apart from the grace and work of God, will choose to believe in and follow Christ. It is impossible, we can't do it, we are not able to (Jn 6:44). Scripture is clear that "there is none who seeks for God" (Rom 3:11). The reason we believers are believers is God, not us. It is because of Him that we are in Christ Jesus (1Cor 1:30-31). We can take no credit for it, none whatsoever.

but the elect have no freedom of will. They are saved by force (Monergism, they have no say in the matter).

==I guess you could say we, like Paul, are saved by force (Acts 9:3-6). God moves in our hearts and, by His grace, we respond. However that is not force, that is God drawing us to Himself. Jesus is clear everyone who the Father has elected will be saved (Jn 6:37). It will happen, no questions asked. Is that force? I guess you could call it that, but I would not. I would call it the grace of God drawing His elect to Himself through the Holy Spirit and the faithful preaching of His Word.

 

[Amy.G]

Rom 3:10 As it is written:
"There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."



This is where "it is written":

Psa 14:1 PSALM 14
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
THE fool has said in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.
14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
14:3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.
14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
And do not call on the LORD?
Psa 14:5 There they are in great fear,
For God is with the generation of the righteous

In this Psalm, the ones who "do not seek after God" are the same ones in verse 1 who said "there is no God". They are fools. These are the ones that verses 1-4 are speaking of.

Paul also speaks of these people in Romans:

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

God gave them up only after they refused to acknowledge God as creator and give Him the honor He is due. He did not give them up before they rejected Him, but because they rejected Him.

 

[ajg1959]

Well Brother Martin,

At least I know now how you reconcile these issues. In fact, I would agree with some of it. At the same time, you must agree that if Monergism is true, there are particular individuals God Does NOT allow "them to procede in their choices." The lost have freedom of will, except to believe, but the elect have no freedom of will. They are saved by force (Monergism, they have no say in the matter).

What you have said here has always been my impression of Calvinism. If I am chosen as one of the elect, then I will be saved whether I want to or not....and if I am not one of the elect then I will go to hell no matter how much I cry out to God and beg for mercy and forgiveness.

In other words, calvinism is the opposite of free will, because free will does not really exist if God has decided for us.

AJ

 

[ajg1959]

Boy, I am really depressed now. I wish I hadnt of started this thread now.

I sure hope you Calvinists are wrong and God hears my cry for mercy and forgiveness. I hope He hears everyone that asks for mercy and forgiveness.

AJ

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

Boy, I am really depressed now. I wish I hadnt of started this thread now.

I sure hope you Calvinists are wrong and God hears my cry for mercy and forgiveness. I hope He hears everyone that asks for mercy and forgiveness.

AJ

A.J.,

You do not need to plead with God to save you. He wants to save you.

Read this booklet (link below) on my web site and simply do as the Word of God through His Spirit tells you.

God Wants You To Know!

 

[ajg1959]

A.J.,

You do not need to plead with God to save you. He wants to save you.

Read this booklet (link below) on my web site and simply do as the Word of God through His Spirit tells you.

God Wants You To Know!

I believe that I have been saved for many years, it just disturbs me to think that some believe that my claim to salvation may be in vain because I may not be one of the elect.

I guess this brings up the obvious question now......if calvinism is the true doctrine of salvation, does one have to believe in that doctrine to be saved?

Also, if God is going to save us regardless of our own will, then why is all of the Bible needed? Why do we need so much instruction if we dont have a choice?

AJ

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

I believe that I have been saved for many years, it just disturbs me to think that some believe that my claim to salvation may be in vain because I may not be one of the elect.

I guess this brings up the obvious question now......if calvinism is the true doctrine of salvation, does one have to believe in that doctrine to be saved?

Also, if God is going to save us regardless of our own will, then why is all of the Bible needed? Why do we need so much instruction if we dont have a choice?

AJ

You are correct. That is why Calvinism is also often referred to as Fatalism.

 

[Martin]

I believe that I have been saved for many years, it just disturbs me to think that some believe that my claim to salvation may be in vain because I may not be one of the elect.

==If you are saved, you are one of the elect. Why do you, and/or others, doubt your salvation?

 

[Martin]

Boy, I am really depressed now. I wish I hadnt of started this thread now.

I sure hope you Calvinists are wrong and God hears my cry for mercy and forgiveness. I hope He hears everyone that asks for mercy and forgiveness.

AJ

That kind of sentiment, though no doubt genuine, makes me think you don't understand Calvinism.

 

[ajg1959]

That kind of sentiment, though no doubt genuine, makes me think you don't understand Calvinism.

No I dont understand it, but I dont doubt my own salvation....

I met some Baptist Calvinists and they were very gloomy and seemed to cast doubt on my salvation because I wasnt one of them, so I thought I would ask here on the board for more information.

I am NOT interested in becoming a Calvinist, I am merely trying to understand where these folks were coming from. The doctrine that they were trying to convey to me seemed like a doctrine of doom.

Well, I appreciate your input on this, I think I will read some of Bro Cloud's teachings on Way of Life Literature and see what he says about it. I am IFB and tend to agree with most of his teachings.

Thank you
AJ

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

No I dont understand it, but I dont doubt my own salvation....

I met some Baptist Calvinists and they were very gloomy and seemed to cast doubt on my salvation because I wasnt one of them, so I thought I would ask here on the board for more information.

I am NOT interested in becoming a Calvinist, I am merely trying to understand where these folks were coming from. The doctrine that they were trying to convey to me seemed like a doctrine of doom.

Well, I appreciate your input on this, I think I will read some of Bro Cloud's teachings on Way of Life Literature and see what he says about it. I am IFB and tend to agree with most of his teachings.

Thank you
AJ

Brother Cloud has some good articles.

Here is a link to some articles on my site you might enjoy as well.
Dispensationalism and the Doctrine of Election

 

[Baptist4life]

Did Christ die for the sins of the WHOLE world or just the sins of the elect? Did God "so love the WORLD" or just the elect? Is it "whosoever calls on the name of the Lord" or just the elect? What about "not willing that ANY should perish?" No, I don't understand or believe in Calvinism! Thank God! :applause:

 

[PK]

No I dont understand it, but I dont doubt my own salvation....

I met some Baptist Calvinists and they were very gloomy and seemed to cast doubt on my salvation because I wasnt one of them, so I thought I would ask here on the board for more information.

I am NOT interested in becoming a Calvinist, I am merely trying to understand where these folks were coming from. The doctrine that they were trying to convey to me seemed like a doctrine of doom.

Well, I appreciate your input on this, I think I will read some of Bro Cloud's teachings on Way of Life Literature and see what he says about it. I am IFB and tend to agree with most of his teachings.

Thank you
AJ

Yes. Don't let Calvinist run you away from Bro. Cloud.

 

[ajg1959]

Brother Cloud has some good articles.

Here is a link to some articles on my site you might enjoy as well.
Dispensationalism and the Doctrine of Election

I am reading your article, and it alludes to a theory that I have had for years. You say that God has foreknowledge of everything past and future.

I have often wondered if God has created everything, then that includes the concept of time. If He created time, then He is certainly not confined by it. It has been my theory that God knows the future because He is already there.

But just because He is there and already knows the decisions that I will make, I in no way believe that changes my free will to make those decisions. Its still up to me. I think that time is a concept that confines man during his lifetime, but in no way restricts God. Time only affects us.

I am not saying that I am right on this, but it is my theory.

AJ

 

[Amy.G]

I am reading your article, and it alludes to a theory that I have had for years. You say that God has foreknowledge of everything past and future.

I have often wondered if God has created everything, then that includes the concept of time. If He created time, then He is certainly not confined by it. It has been my theory that God knows the future because He is already there.

But just because He is there and already knows the decisions that I will make, I in no way believe that changes my free will to make those decisions. Its still up to me. I think that time is a concept that confines man during his lifetime, but in no way restricts God. Time only affects us.
I am not saying that I am right on this, but it is my theory.

AJ

Time is the box that we are in, but God is outside of the box. He sees past, present and future all at once.

 

[Rippon]

Brother Cloud has some good articles.

Bro. Cloud is as cloudy on Calvinism as he is on the subject of Bible translations. IOW, there are better sources out there.