Questions About Predestination

[Charlie24]

Those who believe in God do so because their will has been freed. It’s not because they had free will in the first place.

I believe in total depravity, and it's the hearing of the Gospel that man realizes who he is and his need for a Savior.

 

[DaveXR650]

Is it possible that you have heard the Gospel with the conviction of the Holy Spirit and believed that truth and God gave you righteousness?

I think that is exactly what you did. And you have wisely explained that the conviction of the Holy Spirit was essential. It was also predestined that it would happen and you were part of the elect from the very beginning. Your conversion did not surprise God, nor did he see it in the future because of some virtue contained in you that others did not have of their own. I, and I don't think you would either, would want to take any more credit upon yourself than just that indeed, you did hear the gospel and respond. But you did indeed do that.

 

[DaveXR650]

I believe in total depravity, and it's the hearing of the Gospel that man realizes who he is and his need for a Savior.

There is where there is legitimate room for honest disagreement. Is the gospel itself, as the bare information, enough? Or, is the direct work of the Holy Spirit necessary, and if so, is this always accompanying the gospel or is it totally separate. And is the nature of this Holy Spirit work one of instant prior regeneration, or is it enlightenment and conviction and does it always lead to faith or can it be effectively resisted and on and on.

What is confusing is that many great Calvinists seem to believe one thing theologically, then preach in a very free will manner. They obviously believe a range of positions, which is not surprising since the WCF states this in section III. It almost seems like it was written by a committee. Actually it was. I think it is a beautiful set of guardrails to keep us on track but you shouldn't camp on one point too long, as some seem to do.

 

[Charlie24]

I think that is exactly what you did. And you have wisely explained that the conviction of the Holy Spirit was essential. It was also predestined that it would happen and you were part of the elect from the very beginning. Your conversion did not surprise God, nor did he see it in the future because of some virtue contained in you that others did not have of their own. I, and I don't think you would either, would want to take any more credit upon yourself than just that indeed, you did hear the gospel and respond. But you did indeed do that.

I take no credit for my salvation. How could I, there was nothing I could do but say, yes Lord I believe.

 

[Charlie24]

There is where there is legitimate room for honest disagreement. Is the gospel itself, as the bare information, enough? Or, is the direct work of the Holy Spirit necessary, and if so, is this always accompanying the gospel or is it totally separate. And is the nature of this Holy Spirit work one of instant prior regeneration, or is it enlightenment and conviction and does it always lead to faith or can it be effectively resisted and on and on.

What is confusing is that many great Calvinists seem to believe one thing theologically, then preach in a very free will manner. They obviously believe a range of positions, which is not surprising since the WCF states this in section III. It almost seems like it was written by a committee. Actually it was. I think it is a beautiful set of guardrails to keep us on track but you shouldn't camp on one point too long, as some seem to do.

Christ said he would send the Comforter/Holy Spirit, and He would convict of sin and of righteousness.

He does it through the hearing of the Gospel. The hearing of the Gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit is our awakening to the truth.

Eph. 1:13

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

 

[Silverhair]

He used scripture. Everything stated was supported by scripture.

Those that oppose the doctrines of grace cannot reconcile, will not even attempt to address the passages quoted beyond saying they are “wrong information” though they cannot explain WHY the scripture quoted is “wrong information”.

Instead, they make baseless claims of “pagan philosophy”….. bla bla bla

And… absolutely no one should consider for a moment the opinion of someone that believes many are saved having never heard the gospel.

Peace to you

You really are becoming an old record @canadyjd.

It is obvious that you have refused to actually look at the pagan foundations of your particular view or perhaps you are comfortable with that.

Many cults have done just what those calvinist teachers have done, twist scripture by cherry picking out of context verses to support their views.

It is not required that you trust my words but you do need to trust the word of God.

Why would you expect someone to accept your DoG/TULIP when we do not find it in scripture?

 

[canadyjd]

I'm thinking the Calvinists think they are the elect by believing it was predestined for them to believe and so they do believe, not realizing they made a free will choice to believe.

I've never had a problem with the faith of the Calvinist's, I have a problem with how they think they came to that faith.

You misunderstand what those who follow the doctrines of grace believe.

To say we think we are “the elect” because we were predestined to believe is just a different shade of Arminianism. It puts the focus on what the man does. Nothing could be further from the truth, imo.

We are “the elect” because of God, according to His plan and the kind intention of His will, chose us to be the elect. We believe because God made it possible for us to believe. We are saved because of what God has done.

We responded with faith in Jesus, yes, but the gift is totally of God, so we cannot boast that we have done something that God responded to and granted salvation.

The idea of “free will” is the second lie of Satan in the garden… that Adam and Eve would be “like God” in knowing good and evil.

Even though they knew good and evil “like God”, they could not be like God in always choosing good instead of evil. Their human will was immediately enslaved to sin, rendering them, and all their offspring, from being in a right relationship with God unless God first intervenes to make it happen.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Why would you expect someone to accept your DoG/TULIP when we do not find it in scripture?

The doctrines of grace are abundantly taught in scripture. Just because you are blind, or willfully ignorant, to scripture doesn't discredit that truth.

But I would expect such an argument from someone who believes many are saved having never heard the gospel.

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

You misunderstand what those who follow the doctrines of grace believe.

To say we think we are “the elect” because we were predestined to believe is just a different shade of Arminianism. It puts the focus on what the man does. Nothing could be further from the truth, imo.

We are “the elect” because of God, according to His plan and the kind intention of His will, chose us to be the elect. We believe because God made it possible for us to believe. We are saved because of what God has done.

We responded with faith in Jesus, yes, but the gift is totally of God, so we cannot boast that we have done something that God responded to and granted salvation.

The idea of “free will” is the second lie of Satan in the garden… that Adam and Eve would be “like God” in knowing good and evil.

Even though they knew good and evil “like God”, they could not be like God in always choosing good instead of evil. Their human will was immediately enslaved to sin, rendering them, and all their offspring, from being in a right relationship with God unless God first intervenes to make it happen.

Peace to you

God doesn't want robots that He elected to love Him, He wants man to love Him by their own free will/choice.

That's the reason man began with God given free will in the Garden and nothing has changed.

 

[canadyjd]

God doesn't want robots that He elected to love Him, He wants man to love Him by their own free will/choice.

That's the reason man began with God given free will in the Garden and nothing has changed.

Really!!!! Nothing has changed concerning man’s human will since the garden!!!

Wow!!!!

The Apostle Paul spends several chapters in Romans explaining that man’s will is enslaved to sin. He personifies both sin and death as masters that control every person. He specifically states people do the will of the sin master, until he delivers them to the death master (the wages of sin is death).

Everything changed because of the fall!!!

You have an exaggerated view of man’s human will and a seriously diminished view of the consequences of sin.

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

Really!!!! Nothing has changed concerning man’s human will since the garden!!!

Wow!!!!

The Apostle Paul spends several chapters in Romans explaining that man’s will is enslaved to sin. He personifies both sin and death as masters that control every person. He specifically states people do the will of the sin master, until he delivers them to the death master (the wages of sin is death).

Everything changed because of the fall!!!

You have an exaggerated view of man’s human will and a seriously diminished view of the consequences of sin.

Peace to you

It looks like you're the one with the exaggeration.

We are all fallen just as Adam and we all have free will just as Adam.

Nothing has changed.

 

[canadyjd]

It looks like you're the one with the exaggeration.

We are all fallen just as Adam and we all have free will just as Adam.

Nothing has changed.

Your belief is repudiated by scripture. Paul explains sin controls every person. How can a person have “free will” if they are controlled by sin?

People have human will, enslaved by sin.

Perhaps a definition of “free will” will help us here. What is your definition?

What does it mean to have “free will”? Does it mean a person is in a “neutral” state.. able to consider every choice without any interference either inside or outside?

Peace to you

 

[JonC]

You misunderstand what those who follow the doctrines of grace believe.

Perhaps it is better to state beliefs rather than "the Doctrines of Grace" (especially since no Baptist believes the Doctrines of Grace as a whole).

 

[Charlie24]

Your belief is repudiated by scripture. Paul explains sin controls every person. How can a person have “free will” if they are controlled by sin?

People have human will, enslaved by sin.

Perhaps a definition of “free will” will help us here. What is your definition?

What does it mean to have “free will”? Does it mean a person is in a “neutral” state.. able to consider every choice without any interference either inside or outside?

Peace to you

If you don't know what "free will" means by now, I'm sure I can't explain it for you.

 

[Silverhair]

The doctrines of grace are abundantly taught in scripture. Just because you are blind, or willfully ignorant, to scripture doesn't discredit that truth.

But I would expect such an argument from someone who believes many are saved having never heard the gospel.

Peace to you

If it were the truth then it would be clearly taught rather than hidden in mysterious codes that only you enlightened ones can discern.

Never read the OT have you or perhaps you can just read Heb 11.

 

[Silverhair]

Your belief is repudiated by scripture. Paul explains sin controls every person. How can a person have “free will” if they are controlled by sin?

People have human will, enslaved by sin.

Perhaps a definition of “free will” will help us here. What is your definition?

What does it mean to have “free will”? Does it mean a person is in a “neutral” state.. able to consider every choice without any interference either inside or outside?

Peace to you

Free will is the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action (aka choosing “otherwise”). This does not require the person to be able to choose anything, nor does it require the absence of other influencing factors. It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options.

But since you think your version of god determined all things then it is obvious that you do not have a free will which means that you do not have the ability to make rational choices. You do not have the ability to choose between various options as all your views and actions have been predetermined.

 

[canadyjd]

If you don't know what "free will" means by now, I'm sure I can't explain it for you.

Are you able to articulate what you mean by “free will” or not? Do you believe the human will is “free” from any influence, whether internal or external?

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Free will is the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action (aka choosing “otherwise”). This does not require the person to be able to choose anything, nor does it require the absence of other influencing factors. It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options…..

You are describing human will, which is influenced by many factors.

When a person is confronted with several alternatives, they will chose the option they desire the most at that moment in time.

Can we agree on that?

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

If it were the truth then it would be clearly taught….

It is clearly taught. Your inability to comprehend, or more likely, willful rejection to what is clearly taught, doesn’t mean it’s not clearly taught.

Peace to you