Questions about the Calvinist viewpoint.

[Iconoclast]

Careful, you'll be labelled a parrot.....

I am thankful that many of these gifted teachers are available to "parrot" the truth rather than try and reinvent the wheel and post in ignorance of Divine truth:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Brother Sapper Woody, you wanted to start with Total Depravity, and I started with election. I didn't see that until after I had written those posts. Sorry for that...my bad. On we go to Total Depravity.

In the Garden, God gave Adam....both Adam and Eve....God saw them through Adam, he being her head....1 Cor. 11....all they ever needed, even the Tree of Life was there. They were in communion w/God daily. The time came....how long from their being placed in the Garden to the fall, I haven't the foggiest.....nor does anyone else....when Eve was deceived by the serpent, she ate, gave to Adam and he ate, and their eyes were opened to see their nakedness. They then took fig leaves and girded themselves....people have been trying to cover their nakedness....their sin IOW...ever since...but only the blood of Christ, the robe of His righteousness can cover it.


When God's voice came as in the cool of the evening, they fled and hid themselves. Even after "covering" their nakedness with fig leaves, they knew it wasn't sufficient enough. God even caused Adam to hang himself. When He asked Adam where was he, he said they were naked and hid themselves. God then ask him who told you was naked? This God, the Almighty, who they daily communed with, when they heard His voice after they fell, they fled from Him. To make a long story short, God drove them both out, after he made them coats of skin, a sacrificial offering for their sin, placed cherubim and a flaming sword to protect the Tree of Life, lest they lay hold on it and live forever. They had no way to get back to that Tree of Life of their own volition. Now, even to this day, neither do we have the faculties to recover ourselves from our fallen state we were in. It takes Christ to do that for us.

 

[convicted1]

I am thankful that many of these gifted teachers are available to "parrot" the truth rather than try and reinvent the wheel and post in ignorance of Divine truth:thumbs::thumbs:

:thumbsup::thumbsup:<------back at ya....

 

[steaver]

As most of you know if you've read my previous posts, I am non-Cal. What I hope to accomplish with this thread is to gain some insight as to the Calvinist system. I'll be honest right up front: I am not interested in becoming a Calvinist. But there are some viewpoints that I'd like some more info on. I am not wanting to argue and try to tell you why I think I'm right. I am just wanting to understand what/why you believe in the Calvinist system.

I'll start by sharing my viewpoint.

I don't believe that man is irresistibly drawn to God, but that man can't just "decide" to be saved. I believe he has to be drawn by the Holy Spirit, and then at that point he has to make a choice to accept Christ or reject him.

I believe that Jesus' death on the cross atoned for all mankind's sins, but only those who allow Christ to apply it to their life through salvation can take advantage of this atonement.

I believe man is born with a sin nature, and without Christ any good that they do is viewed by God as "filthy rags", but once they accept Christ, God sees them as sinless (as he only sees the blood) even though they still sin.

You have heard the Spirit correctly. Too often the Holy Spirit is left out of the debate, the letter must agree with the Spirit. It is the Spirit who is to teach us the letter, not so much man, man is only there to help as far as their help coincides with the Spirit within. You will know when an argument feels right and when it feels wrong, by the Spirit living within. Some get clouded and confused by what they read and hear, seek God, pray for wisdom. raying:

 

[Van]

I don't believe that man is irresistibly drawn to God, but that man can't just "decide" to be saved. I believe he has to be drawn by the Holy Spirit, and then at that point he has to make a choice to accept Christ or reject him.

The Calvinist doctrine being disputed here is the doctrine of Irresistible Grace, that when scripture says draw all men, what it means is God drags all elect people. While mainstream scholars say the Greek word translated draw means to compel by force, when used in the literal physical sense, i.e. draw a sword for battle, the word is also used metaphorically, and means to attract by persuasion. Calvinist scholars dispute this view.

Your view seems Arminian, where without the supernatural influence of the Holy Spirit upon you as an individual and altering your perspective, you would not be drawn by the lovingkindness of God has presented in the gospel. However, Christ said (John 12:32) if He be high and lifted up, referring to His crucifixion, He would draw all men. Thus simple awareness, i.e. to behold, that Christ died for you, would draw you to Christ. Thus the Holy Spirit’s work in anointing Jesus with power, and bringing the gospel message (i.e. inspiring the NT writers) would be the least Christ is teaching - to go beyond that is to speculate. Thus the Arminian view could be true, but is not necessarily true.

Similarly, “no one comes to Me unless drawn by the Father” (John 6:37) does not teach everyone drawn by the Father comes to Christ. Logically it is like walking by a bakery. All who smell the fresh bread are drawn to the idea of entering and buying something, but not all who smell the fresh bread choose to enter. Some hurry on to the liquor story. But everyone who enters was drawn by the smell!

Finally God can harden or otherwise preclude someone from trusting in Christ, i.e. Judas. But again, this does not say everyone is blocked unless granted entry, it only says everyone granted entry was not blocked. (John 6:65)

 

[steaver]

The Calvinist doctrine being disputed here is the doctrine of Irresistible Grace, that when scripture says draw all men, what it means is God drags all elect people. While mainstream scholars say the Greek word translated draw means to compel by force, when used in the literal physical sense, i.e. draw a sword for battle, the word is also used metaphorically, and means to attract by persuasion. Calvinist scholars dispute this view.

Your view seems Arminian, where without the supernatural influence of the Holy Spirit upon you as an individual and altering your perspective, you would not be drawn by the lovingkindness of God has presented in the gospel. However, Christ said (John 12:32) if He be high and lifted up, referring to His crucifixion, He would draw all men. Thus simple awareness, i.e. to behold, that Christ died for you, would draw you to Christ. Thus the Holy Spirit’s work in anointing Jesus with power, and bringing the gospel message (i.e. inspiring the NT writers) would be the least Christ is teaching - to go beyond that is to speculate. Thus the Arminian view could be true, but is not necessarily true.

Similarly, “no one comes to Me unless drawn by the Father” (John 6:37) does not teach everyone drawn by the Father comes to Christ. Logically it is like walking by a bakery. All who smell the fresh bread are drawn to the idea of entering and buying something, but not all who smell the fresh bread choose to enter. Some hurry on to the liquor story. But everyone who enters was drawn by the smell!

Finally God can harden or otherwise preclude someone from trusting in Christ, i.e. Judas. But again, this does not say everyone is blocked unless granted entry, it only says everyone granted entry was not blocked. (John 6:65)

Good stuff Van! :thumbsup:

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

There is no room for reasoning in the TULIP model. God causes everything, even your agreeing with Him.

 

[Reformed]

As most of you know if you've read my previous posts, I am non-Cal. What I hope to accomplish with this thread is to gain some insight as to the Calvinist system. I'll be honest right up front: I am not interested in becoming a Calvinist. But there are some viewpoints that I'd like some more info on. I am not wanting to argue and try to tell you why I think I'm right. I am just wanting to understand what/why you believe in the Calvinist system.

I'll start by sharing my viewpoint.

I don't believe that man is irresistibly drawn to God, but that man can't just "decide" to be saved. I believe he has to be drawn by the Holy Spirit, and then at that point he has to make a choice to accept Christ or reject him.

I believe that Jesus' death on the cross atoned for all mankind's sins, but only those who allow Christ to apply it to their life through salvation can take advantage of this atonement.

I believe man is born with a sin nature, and without Christ any good that they do is viewed by God as "filthy rags", but once they accept Christ, God sees them as sinless (as he only sees the blood) even though they still sin.

To make this discussion easy to follow, I suggest we go through TULIP one letter at a time. So, naturally we'll start with total depravity. As I understand it (and of course, in my limited understanding I could be wrong) Calvinists believe that man is born without the ability to seek God, or the desire to be saved. If this is the case, I partially agree. As I said, I believe it takes the conviction of the Holy Spirit for a man to see himself as he is and desire to be saved. But I don't believe that only a select few will have that opportunity. I believe that opportunity will be given to every man at least once in their lifetime.

I'd like to start the discussion on that note. I may not always respond right away, as I plan on studying verses and issues brought up in this discussion. But if I don't respond right away, I'm not ignoring a post. I'm just searching it out.

Also, I plan on ignoring any posts that derail the thread into an argument, especially straw men.

Thank you in advance for your time in this matter.

So, what is your first question?

 

[Sapper Woody]

I just wanted to check in and thank those who have answered on topic. I've been on the road and haven't had an opportunity to study out the responses. But I will soon.

 

[Rippon]

The Calvinist doctrine being disputed here is the doctrine of Irresistible Grace, that when scripture says draw all men, what it means is God drags all elect people.

No, you are wrong Van. Calvinists believe in effectual drawing. In John 3:14 and 15 it says that the Son of Man must be lifted up so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him.

All of His own will come to him. We learn from John 6 that the Father gives certain ones to Christ. The Father draws these individuals and they will come to the Son.

Both Jews and Greeks --people without distinction are thus drawn --not everyone without exception or you'll land in Universalism.

Similarly, “no one comes to Me unless drawn by the Father” (John 6:37) does not teach everyone drawn by the Father comes to Christ.

Of course John 6:37,39,44,65 teach that everyone who is drawn by the Father will come to Christ. To deny what the Scripture clearly teaches is sinful Van. Straighten up and fly right. Everyone who comes to Jesus comes because the Father has drawn them --without exception. In John 6:39 it says of Christ "I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

Put your confidence in the Word of God. No longer doubt His Word. Don't be a sceptic --believe.

 

[Van]

Hi Rippon, thanks for presenting so clearly how Calvinism understands John 6. Note that Calvinism doubles down on their redefinition of "draw" i.e. if you believe draw always means compel irresistibly, then if God draws all men who hear the lovingkindness of gospel, you end up in Universalism. Nuff said.

 

[Van]

I believe that Jesus' death on the cross atoned for all mankind's sins, but only those who allow Christ to apply it to their life through salvation can take advantage of this atonement.

Here we have the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement, the idea that Christ died only for those individuals chosen before the foundation of the world. No need to present the alternate view, i.e. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all.

Your view (SW) needs, in my humble and often mistaken opinion, to be slightly altered. When we put our wholehearted faith in Christ, we do not "allow" Christ to save us, we throw ourselves upon His mercy. Many a person has professed "belief" in Christ, see Matthew chapter 7, for example. Christ, who knows our heart, chooses (or not) to credit or reckon our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5. Thus our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand, Romans 5:2. If we return to John 6, we see Christ knows who "believes wholeheartedly" and who, like the second and third soils of Matthew 13, believe to a lesser degree.

 

[Rippon]

Here we have the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement, the idea that Christ died only for those individuals chosen before the foundation of the world.

Yes, Christ died for the elect alone. He did not die for those not chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

[Rippon]

Hi Rippon, thanks for presenting so clearly how Calvinism understands John 6. Note that Calvinism doubles down on their redefinition of "draw" i.e. if you believe draw always means compel irresistibly,

Did I say that? No, I did not. You often ignore what I say and insist on misrepresenting my views.

The elect alone are those given of the Father to Christ. Everybody is not given. Due to the election of grace the hearts of the elect are made soft. Their stony hearts become hearts of flesh. The reluctant are made willing. There is no violence exerted upon them.

then if God draws all men who hear the lovingkindness of gospel,

Every single individual does not hear the Gospel. And many who do hear the Gospel reject it. The Lord does not draw every single person, past present and future. God the Father draws certain ones --the elect --whose names were recorded before the foundation of the world in the Lamb's Book of Life -- to Christ. The Father gives them to Christ. Everyone is not given. Everyone is not drawn. Everyone is not elect. The given, the drawn, and the elect are the very same people.

you end up in Universalism. Nuff said.

You certainly would end up in Universalism to believe that every single person has been drawn to Christ. Because as I have explained earlier: If one is drawn, one is elect. One cannot be drawn yet not be elect. Drawing is always to completion --it's efficacious grace. It always succeeds. Everyone drawn is brought into union with Christ. No one can be drawn yet be outside the kingdom of God --it's an impossibility. No one can come -- be drawn, unless the Father draws them --gives them to the Son.

 

[Yeshua1]

Here we have the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement, the idea that Christ died only for those individuals chosen before the foundation of the world. No need to present the alternate view, i.e. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all.

Your view (SW) needs, in my humble and often mistaken opinion, to be slightly altered. When we put our wholehearted faith in Christ, we do not "allow" Christ to save us, we throw ourselves upon His mercy. Many a person has professed "belief" in Christ, see Matthew chapter 7, for example. Christ, who knows our heart, chooses (or not) to credit or reckon our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5. Thus our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand, Romans 5:2. If we return to John 6, we see Christ knows who "believes wholeheartedly" and who, like the second and third soils of Matthew 13, believe to a lesser degree.

It is the work of the Spirit to have sinners enabled to call upon Jesus in order to get saved, and those enabled by him to do such are the Elect of God!

For the Father knows EVERY sinner Jesus died to secure salvation for on the Cross, and makes sure all of them shall be saved!

 

[Winman]

It is the work of the Spirit to have sinners enabled to call upon Jesus in order to get saved, and those enabled by him to do such are the Elect of God!

The preaching of the word of God enables ALL men to believe if they will.

Jhn 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John preached so that "all men might believe" not a select few as you falsely teach.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

God has revealed his grace that brings salvation to all men, not a select few.

For the Father knows EVERY sinner Jesus died to secure salvation for on the Cross, and makes sure all of them shall be saved!

Jesus died for all sinners.

1 Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Do the scriptures say Jesus died for only some sinners? NO, the scriptures say Jesus died for "sinners" which would include ALL sinners.

The elect are those whom God in his foreknowledge saw would believe in time. (1 Pet 1:2, 2 The 2:13).

God does not enter into a personal relationship with a person until they believe in time, but God can foresee this personal relationship in his foreknowledge.

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

 

[eyermatt5683]

Depravity and regeneration

SW,

I'm not necessarily a Calvinist or a non-Calvinist. Having spent my entire life in non-Calvinist churches, though, I can get where you're coming from. I tend to lean towards Calvinism these days, primarily through reading John Bunyan, John Owen, and Arthur Pink; even though I've been warned by Pastors against reading them - for fear I'll become a Calvinist.

The idea of the depravity of man is a little more involved for me than just simply deciding whether man is depraved or not. When examining verses for the depravity of man, I would suggest that you compare the depravity of the lost with the characteristics of the regenerated. Compare and contrast the new spiritual heart promised by God with the old carnal heart. You will soon see that our depraved nature demands a radical operation of the Holy Spirit.

So many people in the churches I've been in want salvation to be simply a "choice". While it is a choice, from a Biblical point of view it is so much more than that. Non-Calvinists tend to view salvation as a momentary choice; Calvinists tend to view it from the perspective of regeneration. If you want to understand the Calvinist viewpoint, you'll have to explore the doctrine of regeneration.

Take for example, the book of 1 John. Why was it written? (1John 5:13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. God had John write an entire book to professed believers so that they would believe?? If you examine 1 John, you will find that he constantly contrasts true believers with false believers. Salvation is not just professing Jesus Christ, it is possessing Him.

What does this have to do with depravity? Well, apparently, because of our depraved hearts, it is so easy to lay claim to believing in Jesus without actually believing in him that we need an entire book to show us the difference between the lost and the regenerated. If the Holy Spirit has to only convict us of sin, and then we "choose" whether to accept Jesus or not, why do we need 1 John? So much more than simply "choosing" is necessary that Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be reborn by the Holy Spirit. Non-Calvinists focus on the "whosoever believeth" of John 3, while Calvinists tend to focus on "Ye must be born again." You can believe without being reborn, but you cannot be reborn without believing.

Our depraved hearts will take every opportunity to give us a false sense of eternal security, as long as we are not actually regenerated. You see, it is not just, Do you believe in Jesus?, but, Have you been born again? Our carnal hearts would be happy to trade true faith for a false one. It is not just Can you believe? but Will you believe? Is your faith true, or feigned? Is it whole-hearted, or half-hearted? Is it in Jesus, or in a prayer? Is it based on God's Word, or the words of man? Is it in the Jesus as represented in the Bible, or is it in a fake Jesus? - one that is more palatable to our carnal minds. Have you been convicted and enlightened by the Holy Spirit, or by the sappy words of a well-spoken preacher? Carnal, unregenerated hearts are willing to "choose" Jesus with Heaven as a reward, as long as they do not have to relinquish sin. (Ps 66:18) If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me: God isn't willing to hear those that "choose" Him while still maintaining their regard for their sins.

Examine carefully the parable of the sower in Matthew 13, paying particular attention to the word, "understand". Jesus chose to emphasize true spiritual understanding by using that word repeatedly. According to His explanation of the parable, true understanding is the key. Many teach that we are supposed to simply "receive" Jesus. Well, three of the four hearts in this parable "receive" the Word. The only heart that definitely understands the Word, at least according to Jesus, is the same one that bears fruit.

The stony-hearted hearer and the thorny-hearted hearer both had the opportunity to "receive" the Word. In fact, they are both represented as actually receiving it! Every man can be given the opportunity at least once in their lifetime to be convicted and receive Christ, but it takes more than just an outward receiving to be converted. According to Jesus' explanation of this parable, it is necessary that they "understand with their heart" to "be converted". Something more than simply "receiving" Jesus is needed for true conversion. Something that only the Holy Spirit can provide. True conversion is a spiritual act, and needs a spiritual root cause.

Note also that in Luke's record of the parable, we are told that the good ground is a person that has "an honest and good heart"! Now, since this is clearly a parable about conversion, can you explain how one gets "an honest and good heart" before the seed is sown and received? Especially since the depraved heart is certainly not honest or good. That would seem to give evidence that man needs a spiritual heart in order to properly receive Jesus. A conundrum!

Man's heart is described as dead to God and all things spiritual. Our mind is described as an enemy to God and all things spiritual. Jesus told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again before he told him that he needed to believe in Him. But then He went on to say that men love darkness rather than light. We need the glaring light from the Holy Spirit to give us understanding, so that we can become converted, but we would rather have darkness. Jesus went further. Read John 3:19-21. If Jesus is the light of the world, and those that do evil (depravity) hate the light and will not come to it, but those that do truth (regenerated) come to the light, does that not tell us that we need a new heart that loves truth in order to properly come to Him? Would that not require something more from the Holy Spirit than just giving man an opportunity to come to Him?


(Deut 29:4) Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

(Acts 16:14) And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

 

[Van]

I believe man is born with a sin nature, and without Christ any good that they do is viewed by God as "filthy rags", but once they accept Christ, God sees them as sinless (as he only sees the blood) even though they still sin.

The Calvinist view sees the consequence of the Fall, i.e. our fallen condition, as resulting in "total spiritual inability" where we are unable to seek God or trust in Christ. Many scriptures (Matthew 23:13, Matthew 13:1-23) teach fallen men do seek God, but these do not actually mean what they say according to Calvinism.

Not sure what you mean by sin nature. Perhaps this refers to us being made sinners, with corrupt and fleshly desires.

Yes, all our works of righteousness in our fallen sinful state, are as filthy rags. We cannot earn or merit salvation.

Next, a major difference. It is not "once they accept Christ" but rather "once God credits their faith as righteousness and sets them apart in Christ, where they undergo the circumcision of Christ, does God "see" them are sinless. But, yes, once God spiritually baptizes us into Christ, we still have sinful thoughts and actions, but God does not credit or reckon those thoughts as sin requiring punishment because Christ continuously acts as our mediator, putting our sins out of the way. We on the other hand, are convicted by the Holy Spirit, and strive to alter our thoughts and actions such that we grow more Christ-like.

 

[Van]

A superb question was asked, and so without engaging in debate, I felt obligated to answer it.

Note also that in Luke's record of the parable, we are told that the good ground is a person that has "an honest and good heart"! Now, since this is clearly a parable about conversion, can you explain how one gets "an honest and good heart" before the seed is sown and received? Especially since the depraved heart is certainly not honest or good. That would seem to give evidence that man needs a spiritual heart in order to properly receive Jesus. A conundrum!

The Calvinist view asserts that for a fallen person to have a "good" heart, he had to be "quickened" or "regenerated" or altered by "irresistible grace" such at his "total spiritual inability" is overcome.

So the conundrum is how could a person with a depraved, wicked heart have a "good" one. We deal with the same issue (the condition of fallen people) with terms like "white with harvest" or "of God" or "of My sheep" describing fallen people who are or would be receptive to the gospel.

Good is not used in a moral or absolute sense, only God is good. But it is used in a utilitarian sense, i.e. good for a purpose. Good as in good fish, to be kept, and opposite of fish to be thrown away. So a person who is a believer in God, or open to the influences of God, thus honest and a person of integrity. At the other end of the spectrum from a person who has hardened his or her heart through the practice of sin.

 

[Yeshua1]

The preaching of the word of God enables ALL men to believe if they will.

Jhn 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John preached so that "all men might believe" not a select few as you falsely teach.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

God has revealed his grace that brings salvation to all men, not a select few.




Jesus died for all sinners.

1 Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Do the scriptures say Jesus died for only some sinners? NO, the scriptures say Jesus died for "sinners" which would include ALL sinners.

The elect are those whom God in his foreknowledge saw would believe in time. (1 Pet 1:2, 2 The 2:13).

God does not enter into a personal relationship with a person until they believe in time, but God can foresee this personal relationship in his foreknowledge.

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Jesus Himself told us that few indeed shall find the road/way to eternal life, that MANY seek the road of destruction!

And those whom ears have been enabled to hear and know His voice, his own sheep, shall follow him, all others stay lost in the wilderness by their OWN free choice!

 

[Yeshua1]

A superb question was asked, and so without engaging in debate, I felt obligated to answer it.



The Calvinist view asserts that for a fallen person to have a "good" heart, he had to be "quickened" or "regenerated" or altered by "irresistible grace" such at his "total spiritual inability" is overcome.

So the conundrum is how could a person with a depraved, wicked heart have a "good" one. We deal with the same issue (the condition of fallen people) with terms like "white with harvest" or "of God" or "of My sheep" describing fallen people who are or would be receptive to the gospel.

Good is not used in a moral or absolute sense, only God is good. But it is used in a utilitarian sense, i.e. good for a purpose. Good as in good fish, to be kept, and opposite of fish to be thrown away. So a person who is a believer in God, or open to the influences of God, thus honest and a person of integrity. At the other end of the spectrum from a person who has hardened his or her heart through the practice of sin.

ALL sinners have hard hearts though, as none seek to do good, to seek after God!

We are all born with sin natures, so we might harden it further, but we are already running away, not towards God!