Originally posted by TCassidy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ituttut:
I believe you will agree church means “called out”.
The word "ekklhsia" means "a called out assembly. See Acts 19 where the word is translated "assembly" in most English versions.
Agree, as you can see in my post of the “called out” Quote “There was a church before Jesus with promises of this earth; they (Israel) were “called out.” Unquote. Their promises were of the “earth”. We agree. The nation of Israel is a “called out” people to the Temple that was on the earth. We today are a “called out” people in the Body of Christ who is alive and in heaven, to which we are destined. Was the message to that “assembly” of the church of God on earth, the same message as our “called out “assembly” of the Body of Christ?
There was a church before Jesus with promises of this earth; they (Israel) were “called out”.
No. Israel was never "a church" or "the church." The church is strictly a NT phenomenon.
How can that be – Acts 7:38,
”This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us”. You are correct that the Body of Christ is a NT phenomenon, once Christ revealed this information to us.
Today there are churches of this earth that Christian’s belong to endeavoring to do His will, and it is not the churches that are saved but the individual Christian that belongs to the Body of Christ Church, of which He is the Head.
You have contradicted yourself. The churches today are the people. The church is not the organization, it is the organism. Each and every scriptural local church is a body of believers belonging to Christ, the body of Christ. This is not to be confused with Christ's literal, physical body which is in heaven, Whom we (the saved) are all one with, seated with, etc. All the saved are part of His literal, physical body, but all the saved are not members of local bodies of believers belonging to Christ.
You have misread, and contradicted yourself, as to you contention that there is no “universal” church. You are saying “each and every scriptural local church is a body of believers belonging to Christ, the body of Christ: You speak of a “universal” church, unless you are saying Christ Jesus is not the head of the Body.
We are in Him today, and this “mystery” was not made known to man until Christ from heaven revealed it to Saul/Paul.
Christ started the church during His Earthly ministry, empowered it on the day of Pentecost by sending the Holy Spirit to baptize it, and taught it via the NT writings of Paul, Peter, and John.
But Cassidy does it not strike you as odd that you could not have known this if you hadn’t read the writings of Paul first? What does Jesus say, and what was understood while He was on earth?
”The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it,” Luke 16:16. The law and the prophets were not “mystery”, and the kingdom of God is “at hand” that was preached by John the Baptist, Jesus and the Apostles is no “mystery”.
So what is the “secret” in the “mysteries of God” that Jesus revealed to Paul? It has to be something that no man could ever dream of. Is it not the “Body of Christ”? Is it not that the Gentile is saved
through faith, for the heathen could not be saved as the Jew which is
b faith, so all today are saved as the Gentile, which is
through the faith of Jesus Christ – Romans 3:30,
”Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.”
Within this “mystery” we also find this Body of Christ Church will be raptured.
No. The bible calls that entity either the Kingdom of God or the Family of God.
Please enlighten me by scripture free of contradiction with the Word.
Earthly churches will remain.
As the church is an organized assembly of baptized believers, the believers in churches will all be caught up, as well as all believers not in churches. No "partial rapture."
Do I understand you correctly? If so, you believe the same as I, we all being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Are, are you saying all that are “water baptized” will be caught up?
We Christians are the church (Temple) today, and we belong to assemblies.
It is the other way around. The church today is the Temple of God. In the OT God had one Temple for His people. In the NT He has one people for His Temple.
Where is the “mystery” if all is the same as before (without the Only Begotten Son of God)? We are in the Body of Christ the Church.
Before Pentecost Israel had a church, and we know that church “split” with the coming of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost. Even with the signs and wonders performed by those empowered with the Holy Ghost, the “kingdom that was at hand” would not come for Israel would be cut-off. Matthew 18:17 reveals Christ refers to His disciples as “the church” so it was this “Jewish” church that believers were added when Pentecost came.
Some few years after the stoning of Stephen (this is when Israel was cut-off) we find God has Saul out of Judah and Jerusalem and in Gentile territory. God wants His heavenly Apostle away from the influence of both branches of the Jewish church to personally indoctrinate His new “standard bearer”, not in the City of God, Jerusalem where the “Jewish church” is located, but in “heathen” territory to form a new church, a Body of believers called “Christian”. This is where the Body of Christ Church will be launched, and the “grace commission” will cover the whole earth. We in the Body of Christ Jesus are the “Church” in Jesus Christ, and we belong to men’s “called out assemblies”. Acts 11:26 informs the “called out assembly” (church) is not called Christian but, “the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” We are the Christian church assembled in Christ, attending churches down here.
The Baptist denomination has “believers” that do the will of God, as do the Methodist, Christian, Catholic assemblies, etc. But everybody that belongs to these assemblies are not in the Body of Christ, even though they may do many good deeds. They are in the churches, but not in the Body of Christ Church.
You, again, have used the word "church" in an unscriptural manner. There is no such thing as "The Methodist Church" or "The Baptist Church" or "The Catholic Church." Churches are "organized, assemblies, of baptized believers." There are, in my opinion, saved people in those organizations, but the presence of saved people does not make those organizations true New Testament churches.
How about I call the Baptist church a church with baptized believers, and you call the Baptist assembly an assembly of baptized believers?
But sequitur exists if you are saying the church is an organized assembly of baptized believers, i.e. if you are saying “water baptized believers” and all are saved in the assembly. That was my question “Do you see the “covenant” and nothing else?
I am sorry, but you still are not making any sense.
Perhaps if I rephrase – You brought into conversation “the church is an organized assembly of baptized believers.” I just wondered if you see the “covenant” gospel of the “great commission” is now in effect. To me you seem to lean in that direction as your use of the phrase “the church is an organized assembly of baptized believers”, with no clarification of our baptism with the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ. Appreciate your patience with my inability to correctly convey my thoughts.
Agree, but for today only. It was not always so.
We are not talking about "always." We are talking about the identity of the New Testament church.
Then I agree if you are talking about the Body of Christ, where we are assembled.
It was impossible for anyone to be saved by the grace of God until after Damascus Road, as being saved by Grace, through faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, was still a “secret”. That is if we believe the gospel of Paul. This began the Body of Christ Church.
That is pure heresy! Everybody, from the time of Adam until today, who is saved was saved by grace. There is no other way to be saved. David, under the Law, was saved by grace alone according Romans 4:6, and Abraham, before the Law, was also saved by grace according to Romans 4:3. It is impossible to be saved by anything other than grace according to Hebrews 10:4. And grace and works can never be mixed, for if you try to mix them the one nullifies the other according to Romans 11:6.
I am in good company for Paul was called a heretic, also. I am beginning to believe it may not be my inability to covey in words what I mean. If you will read again what I say, I believe it will become very clear to you if I point out the meanings of my words, which are born out in scripture. It never ceases to amaze me why Christians are so afraid of the word “secret”, and “dispensation”, that is plainly taught us by the Holy Spirit writing through Paul what Christ revealed to Paul, from heaven.
Quote “It was impossible for anyone to be saved by the grace of God until after Damascus Road, as being saved by Grace, through faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, was still a “secret”. Scripture informs Christ revealed (after Damascus Road) things hidden in God from the beginning. Scripture also advises that the “blood sacrifices” of animals could only
cover sins. Doesn’t common sense tell us that this “blood” could not save us while
we live, or after we die? What will it take to save us? Jesus Christ must shed His blood, and that is the only blood that will save us. All before Jesus shed His blood were
conditionally saved. They had to endure until the end. Now and only Now can any be
unconditionally saved for now we can come
through His blood.
Of course it has always been by the Grace of God, but until Jesus Christ shed His blood, none could come by the Grace of God
through faith, without a work/s. In vain you will search His Word endeavoring to allow man to be saved as we are today into the Body of Christ coming through His Faith, shedding His blood for us, and believing His Father would raise Him from the Dead. It is not our Faith that saves, but His. It is
through we come. You will not find in scripture any words to the effect of any being saved
through faith until after Damascus Road. This is the way we enter into His Body, which Body was not previously known to exist housing the heathen and the Jew.
That is what I have been saying all along!
I’m happy that you now agree with me that the head (Mind of the Body) is Christ, and in every member of His Church.
Water baptized believers?
Yes. Water baptism is a requirement for membership in the local New Testament church.
Then aren’t you saying you believe you must “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”? You say all baptized members in a church are saved, so are you saying it is the work of water baptism that saves, and remits sins?
We are in the Body of Christ who is in the kingdom of God.
The local church is a body of believers belonging to Christ, and those believers are all members of the Kingdom of God, but all members of the Kingdom of God are not church members. </font>[/QUOTE]I fully agree that all in the Body of Christ may not be members of a church down here. You say again “The local church is a body of believers belonging to Christ, and those believers are all members of the Kingdom of God.” That says to me that any that join a local church (water baptism is required, for one must first believe) belong to Christ, and everyone in the local church is in the Kingdom of God. Aren’t you now preaching “Universal” salvation of all that belong to a church that requires belief and water baptism? Isn’t this the teaching of the old undivided Catholic church. Please note that none of your references mention any coming
through, for they are decreed to come
by. And this is what I preach, that we today cannot mix the Grace today with the works required in the past. They all had to do a work. We don't.
