Featured Questions and Answers 2

Following up on a recent thread where I did not get the chance to address all the posts, I would like to continue the discussion concerning whether men were born again in Old Testament Eras. Those who say they were offer very little to support their position while if you read the other thread you will see the many passages showing that Regeneration is a result of one being brought into relationship with God through Christ, that Eternal Redemption differs and is not to be equated to the Justification of the Old Testament Saint, and that Regeneration is the result of one being brought into Eternal Union with God. We are new creatures because we are in Christ. We have received the Life that Christ came to give, which, according to His teaching is Eternal Life. Yet many think eternal life was bestowed prior to Christ coming, the problem is...they have no Scriptural support. Nor can they deny the Passages which show that it is only after the Spirit (in the Ministry of Comforter) comes at Pentecost that we see men made one in Christ. Jews and Gentiles were not one prior to Pentecost. The Disciples of Christ were not in Christ prior to Pentecost.

So to kick things off, I would like to bring up a post I didn't get to in the last thread:


@JonShaff

This is the statement of support::

Now let's look at each point:

I will start with a few passages that deny that:



John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The power to become the sons of God is stated to begin when Christ came.


Galatians 4 King James Version (KJV)

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Again, we receive the adoption of sons only after Christ comes. At the appointed time God sent His Son to, and watch this...

...redeem them that were under the Law. The fact is the Old Testament Saint needed, and waited for the Redemption promised by God beginning in Genesis 3:15.

Note that because we are made sons God has sent the Spirit of His Son into out hearts.

Now we see Christ prophesy this truth and we can know for certain that not even the disciples of Christ had received this yet:


John 14:15-18 King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Note v.18, this correlates to God sending the Spirit of His Son into our hearts. We know the Comforter could not come until Christ left (returned to Heaven, John 16:7), so the conclusion is that what Christ prophesies (which was promised by God to men in the Old Testament) will take place in the future. On the very Day of Ascension the Disciples were still awaiting the Promise of the Spirit, which Christ defines as being Baptized with the Holy Ghost, which Peter, in Acts 11:13-18, defines as the very moment of their salvation.

One more for now:


1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


Regeneration is accomplished through the Resurrection of life. In other words, no Resurrection...no life. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, and while there are those who try to impose the Atonement into the Old Testament, Scripture makes it clear there was a point in time when God sent His Son that we might have Life, and this...Eternal. We have this life solely in our being in Him, and He in us.

That is correct. This is the filling of the Spirit which is something that still takes place in the lives of those who have the Spirit...in them. This too is prophesied by Christ which shows it was not happening:


John 14:15-23 King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


We have just looked at this but I thought it good to place this passage together, because we are going to see validation of the Unity of God and the Trinity. In vv.17 and 18 we see that the Spirit and the Son will come to us.

But look, if you will, at v.17, and the emphasis presented: the Holy Ghost was with the disciples, which would have referred to the filling of the Spirit in His Old Testament ministry of empowerment for ministry, but, what is to come is the Spirit of God being in them/us.

That wasn't happening at the time of this teaching, it is prophecy and promise. And defined by Christ in Acts 1:4-5 as the Promise of the Father, taught to them by Christ (this passage being a primary text of that teaching), and is, again, the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, or in simpler terms, whenw e are immersed into God in Eternal Union.


19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Think about it folks: if God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost making His abode in the Disciples is a future event...why would anyone argue to impose this into an Old Testament Age? And at the time of this teaching...we are still within the Age of Law. Look at Galatians 4 again, Christ was made under the Law, and one of the most important things you will understand when trying to understand the relationship of Christ's earthly Ministry (which was to the Lost Sheep of Israel only, as opposed as His salvific ministry to the world) is that Christ did minister under the Law and more importantly...within the framework of the revelation provided men at that point. He expounded upon the mysteries of the Kingdom, because that was the promise of God to Israel, but, He did not reveal the Mystery of the Gospel.

Now we ask ourselves...can a man be regenerated and not have eternal life? Not have Eternal Redemption? Not be in God? Not have the Spirit? It would be absurd to think this, yet many do.

Old Testament Saints did not.

All they had was the earthly parable of entrance to God. Their relationship with God was through the Covenant of Law. When Christ states I am the True Vine, He contrasts Himself with the Covenant of Law (and by extension Israel) as the True Vine, or in other words, the new means of Relationship they were to embrace. Thinking His command to "abide" is simply a matter of remaining faithful to Christ is a poor understanding of John 15, because the simple fact is that not one of the disciples...continued to "abide" in Him in that respect. They were, as Prophecy foretold...scattered like sheep. Peter going so far as to deny he even knew Christ. Denying he was a disciple. That is a far cry from "abiding," wouldn't you say?

So we start out with Jon's statement where we see nothing that supports regeneration in the Old Testament, simply the claim. There is another issue he has raised which was discussed but we will wait for that for the time being, because I open this thread to any holding to Pre-Pentecost Regeneration to address the simple, yet irrefutable truths already given in the OP.


God bless.

 

This is very true. I had at one time, because I was a member of a Southern Baptist fellowship which made clear the distinction between the filling and the indwelling of the Spirit, under the impression that only Charismatics took the view that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost was a subsequent event in the life of a believer, but have since seen that most denominations and non-denominations take this position.

I would ask, rather than simply continuing to make the claim that Old Testament Saints were regenerated, that you present Biblical support for your view. Also, I would ask you to address the points already made in the OP.

In this Age, yes, but that is the focus of the thread, to see if there is a reason to see regeneration occurring in the Old Testament.

So far the best argument presented is "The Lord wouldn't have told Nicodemus he must be born again if it couldn't happen." Sounds good, but, He also told men they must believe on Him and not one person was, not even the disciple of Christ. The reason is they knew not the Scripture that He should rise from the dead, and this because it was not until the Promised Spirit came that He began revealing the Gospel to the hearts of men.

Jon, the Eternal Indwelling of God is not for service, lol. It is the means of eternal life:


John 7:38-39 King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


The "living water" represents eternal life, which is precisely what Christ said He came to give. Why did God give His only begotten Son?

That they might have eternal life.

A justified Old Testament Saint in Hades (prior to the Cross) is still in existence, but just like their counterparts (in torment) that does not constitute eternal life.

The Bible ends with an invitation:


Revelation 22:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Continued...

 

This is the filling of the Spirit. Not the indwelling. This was only promise in the Old Testament, which is made clear by Christ here:


Acts 1:4-8 King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


The disciples are not yet Baptized with the Holy Ghost, and while many view this as a subsequent event to salvation, which seems to be your position, we will see that being Baptized with the Holy Ghost is the very moment of salvation, and it is when we are immersed into God and eternally indwelt.

This...


8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


...is taken to be a proof-text for that view. "Look," some say, "when they are baptized with the Holy Ghost they are empowered."

This is true, however, The Holy Spirit has been empowering men since the beginning with the Filling of the Holy Spirit, and in fact we see that the disciples were empowered by the Spirit already to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, heal, and cast out demons.

This is not the Promise of God, this is...


Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


This is the clearest promise of the New Birth in all of the Old Testament.

Peter defines the Baptism with the Holy Ghost here:


Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


It simply makes no sense to consider the Baptism with the Holy Ghost either subsequent or an empowerment. Truly the disciples were empowered when they received the Spirit and Eternal Life, but, here we see Cornelius and his household are...saved. And this is precisely what happened with the disciples when they received the Promise of the Father taught them by Christ, the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which is the Eternal Indwelling of God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (John 14:15-23) and...

...the means of eternal life.

Some will say "Wait, are you saying the disciples were not saved while they ministered under Christ?" Not at all. They were saved from an eternal perspective, just like the Old Testament Saints, by grace through faith. However, neither group was Eternally Redeemed so in a New Testament sense it is when they are reconciled to God through Christ and both Jew and Gentile made one because they are baptized into Him that they are saved in the sense we use it today.

Today, one who does not have the indwelling of Christ (which is synonymous with being in Christ) is not "saved:"


Romans 8:9 King James Version (KJV)

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Just as Christ does in John 14, here the indwelling of the Spirit and the indwelling of the Son is synonymous. Because God is One.

The Promised Spirit is not "more of the same," lol. It is a brand new and unique ministry among men, by which God is now revealing the Gospel of Christ directly to the hearts of men. It is not "for service," it is for the purpose of reconciling men unto Himself, which is something else not accomplished in the Old Testament. Yes, the Old Testament Saints were "saved," from an eternal perspective and according to the foreknowledge of God, but...

...they were not reconciled thus not Eternally Redeemed.


Continued...

 

So you will not address the points made?


God bless.

 

And there is nothing in all of Scripture to support this, nor can the teachings of the New Testament which make it clear that Regeneration is a New Covenant element be refuted.

That is why you, and everyone else trying to support the opposing view...refuse to address the points made.

Which is just as much as saying "They did not have the indwelling of God."

And that is true, this is the Word of Christ (i.e., John 7:38-39, 14:15-23, and 16:7, to name a few).

The obvious fact we see in the Old Testament is that God empowered men frequently through the filling of the Holy Ghost. This was for ministries such as Prophet, Priest, King, and Warrior.

Actually they are indwelt by God that they might have Eternal Life.

That's just a basic teaching of the New Testament as to why Christ came and what He meant to accomplish.

So nothing has changed according to your view.

That is not what the New Testament teaches.


God bless.

 

It's funny how often those trying (unsuccessfully) to support Pre-Pentecost Regeneration call the salvation of their antagonist into question.

How could adopting an indefensible position that is the result of Systematic Theology rather than Biblical support...

...possibly bring one closer to the Lord?

You'll have to explain that one to me.

This is potentially the most important issue a Christian will come to understand and will impact their entire Theology, so I encourage you to ask yourself why it is that weak arguments and the inability to address the doctrine of an antagonist is a good place to be.


God bless.

 

This is a physical rite.

I'm appalled you consider this regeneration.

You can, though, be a-Paul-ed by understanding Paul's teaching concerning Reconciliation and the Mystery of the Gospel. The Gospel was not revealed to men in past Ages or generations, not to the saints (believers) or the sons of men (all inclusive of all men), but is now revealed by...


Ephesians 3 King James Version (KJV)

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


While some erroneously consider the "Mystery" to exclusively speak of Gentile Inclusion, the problem with that is that we would have to say only Jews were baptized into Christ, because it is through the salvation of Christ that both Jew and Gentile are made one in Christ.

So the question that arises is, why is it that people think it's acceptable for men to be saved apart from placing faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel, and equate that to Eternal Redemption accomplished by Christ/


God bless.

 

This is a physical promise resulting in the bestowal of physical promises, but, just as Redemption was incomplete in the Old Testament (because it had not been accomplished yet), even so receiving the promises in physical form was incomplete:


Hebrews 4:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.


The "Jesus" in view is Joshua. The "people of God in view is Israel.

The original group did not enter into the physical rest of God because of unbelief. The Jews in the Writer's day would not enter into the Rest of Christ if they followed the example of those redeemed out of Israel and were unbelieving.

Or in other words "...be genuine in being one of My people."

Do men save themselves? They are the ones accomplishing Regeneration? They circumcise their hearts.

Those who believe salvation can be lost would agree with you.

Those who understand the Old Testament was physical and held types, parables, and shadow of the realities of the Kingdom of God would not.


Again, what God commands is something they effect, and I know (at least want to believe) you don't think men save themselves. Salvation is wholly the work of Holy God, for He is Sovereign and has always brought men to salvation.

Prophecy.

And on a National basis it still hasn't been fulfilled. But the day will come when...


Romans 11:26-27 King James Version (KJV)

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


We who are in relationship with God through the New Covenant have received the promises of the New Covenant, and this includes the Indwelling Spirit of God on an eternal basis. The disciples sorrowed in their hearts when Christ said "I must return to Heaven" but...they did not understand He would return to indwell themn thus He would be with them eternally. Forever, He says in John 14:16.

And the obvious contrast is...with the physical nature of circumcision which was a physical sign of faith and relationship with God.

How in the world does this even remotely support Regeneration in the Old Testament? You have asserted that the physical rite of circumcision is itself regeneration, then tried to tie that to the figurative language Paul uses here. We are not actually "spiritually circumcised," it's merely an expression meant to contrast the physical with the spiritual.

Keep reading:


Colossians 2:11-14 King James Version (KJV)

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Salvation is accomplished by the Cross of Christ. He died to redeem the transgressions of men, both Old and New Testmaent Saints...


Hebrews 9:15 King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

And it is because of the Resurrection that we have...life:


Hebrews 9:12 King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I will be happy when you produce the first.

Eternal Life is "knowing God?"

Eternal Life is something freely bestowed upon men and is a gift. Men do not seek after it, God comes to them. The natural man does not stumble across the Gospel and draw conclusions, the Promised Spirit, the Comforter, comes to man and enlightens their minds to the Gospel:


John 16:7-9 King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


1 Peter 1:9-12 King James Version (KJV)

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


1 Corinthians 2:7-10 King James Version (KJV)

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


These are just basic truths in Scripture, and my hope is that you will at least give them some consideration.


God bless.

 

The premise of your circumcision argument does imply a tie between the physical rite and regeneration, and you do list this as relevant to regeneration according to the header.

Nevertheless...

So where do we find that they are "alive to God?"

Secondly, you understand that circumcision was performed upon a baby, right? I know you aren't implying they were regenerated at 8 days old, right?


God bless.

 

Actually it is very discouraging to go through the trouble of presenting a Biblical presentation to support my view and always have it ignored.

I would suggest to you that there isn't a singly point you, or any Pre-Pentecost Regeneration adherent can deny. But welcome any that would like to try.

If you would just find one issue to discuss that has been presented, then, brother...I would be encouraged.


God bless.