Questions and Answers 2

[Darrell C]

@Protestant

In the following quote, which follows a rather lengthy quote from a teacher that, I guess, is held in high esteem by the poster, we see one of the major reasons why many embrace Pre-Pentecost Regeneration:

CONCLUSION: Steaver and Darryl, though sincere and well-intentioned they may be, are gravely misguided, as are innumerable other professing Christians, by discounting the need for regeneration by the sovereign grace of God through His Spirit, whether Old Testament or New, before men can attain to saving faith in the promises of Christ to come or in Christ who has come.

There it is. One of the few issues I have with Reformed Theology, but this is a pretty massive error on their part.

The reason they believe men were regenerated in the Old Testament is not because they have a Biblical basis for this view...but because their church fathers told them this is what they must believe.

We are "gravely misguided" yet there is no attempt on the part of the Pre-Pentecost Regenerationist to actually address the issues that show their doctrine to be false.

And here is an irony: they unwillingly negate another position they hold to...Eternal security. How do they do that? Very simple, if men are regenerated in order to have faith, which depends on belief, which depends on revelation (the revealing of the will of God to man), then they must also conclude that those who fall away are born again believers.

No man has responded to the will of God before God first revealed His will to them. The natural man simply cannot understand the spiritual things of God. That is not open to debate. The natural man does not seek God. That too is not open to debate.

And for those who have embraced the equally erroneous doctrine of "Free Will," understand that no man has "free will" to make a decision about something...

...he has never heard about.

That also is not open to debate, it is simply a basic fact taught in Scripture.

So let's get the order right:

1. Revelation is provided to men by God, and regardless of the Age it is given, it presents that which God wants men to come under obedience to. In this Age the Mystery of the Gospel has been revealed to men by the direct and personal ministry of the Holy Ghost, the Comforter.

2. Belief. One believes the truth presented, or...they don't. Now this is what makes it tricky: all men believe the truth to a certain extent, because God has placed an internal witness in men and they know there is a God. The Gentiles of Romans 2:13-16 did not have the direct revelation of the Word of God as did the Jews, but, they performed the works of the Law written on their hearts. But this is revelation from God, not men deciding for themselves that it is wrong to murder, steal, lie, etc. In Romans 1 we see...

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

And the conclusion is they are...without excuse.

How about the false teachers Peter speaks about:


2 Peter 2:20-21 King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


They did not turn from it at first, but, after they have again become entangled.

It's pretty simple: They knew the truth and since unbelievers cannot understand the spiritual things of God and those spiritual things of God are revealed by the Spirit (in this Age through the Ministry of the Comforter) then we must conclude that these received that Ministry of God, associated with the Church, fell away, and in fact remained in a position that suggested they were still of the Church, the Body of Christ.

Here is another example of folks associating with the Body of Christ and falling away:


Hebrews 10:26-29 King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Many teach this as a born again believer losing their salvation, and those who do obviously have never read the beginning of the Chapter. In view are those in danger of forsaking the assembling of the brethren which shows their association with...the Church. Again we see...they have received the truth. From Who? You guessed it...the Comforter, Who seeks to convict of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Of sin because they believe no on Jesus Christ (John 16:7-9). These are not Christians, which is made evident in the fact that they are not contrasted with Christians, but with those of the Age of Law who rejected the Covenant of Law (vv.28-29). In v.27 they are called, not sons of God, but adversaries. Their end is fiery judgment, which speaks of...Hell.

The reason? Despite playing church they ultimately reject Christ the Son of God, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the ministry of the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of grace, the Comforter (v.29). You simply cannot be a Christian if you reject these.

So again the idea that anyone can be regenerated before they actually receive revelation is absurd. Men receive the revelation of God, they respond, and the decision is not always a clear cut yes or no. Some will associate with the Church and engage in Churchianity but there is no conversion...


2 Peter 2:22 King James Version (KJV)

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


And that men were regenerated prior to the coming of the Comforter through Whom they receive Eternal Life is not something derived from Scripture, but simply a position created to set their theology apart from that of others. The primary position at odds with this view is of course...Free Will.

So let's go back to our order of arrangement:

1. Revelation is provided to men by God, and regardless of the Age it is given, it presents that which God wants men to come under obedience to. In this Age the Mystery of the Gospel has been revealed to men by the direct and personal ministry of the Holy Ghost, the Comforter.

2. Belief. One believes the truth presented, or...they don't. Now this is what makes it tricky: all men believe the truth to a certain extent, because God has placed an internal witness in men and they know there is a God. The Gentiles of Romans 2:13-16 did not have the direct revelation of the Word of God as did the Jews, but, they performed the works of the Law written on their hearts. But this is revelation from God, not men deciding for themselves that it is wrong to murder, steal, lie, etc.

And now we can add...

3. Faith.

That someone believes something doesn't mean they have faith in that which they believe in. For example, how many believe we have a President, and how many of them have faith in that President? How many believe there are demons, and how many of them have faith in demons? So when we look at the revelation provided, which is always seen as effected by God, we can see that it brings about a response in the natural man. Abraham is a good example. God said He would give him a son. He believed it, Sarah laughed. He believed it to the point where he knew if he offered him up in sacrifice God would have to resurrect him...because the son held promise Abraham had faith God would fulfill.

So the challenge at this time is for those who embrace Pre-Faith Regeneration...to simply show in Scripture where we see this as a valid doctrinal position.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Edit: probably not a very gentle response...Sorry to waste your time, brother.

Me too.




God bless.

 

[Jesus Saves!]

These scripture came to mind about the OT saints.
Hebrews 11:13-16 KJVS
[13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them , and embraced them , and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. [14] For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. [15] And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. [16] But now they desire a better country , that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

 

[Darrell C]

These scripture came to mind about the OT saints.
Hebrews 11:13-16 KJVS
[13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them , and embraced them , and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. [14] For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. [15] And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. [16] But now they desire a better country , that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Welcome to the Forum, JS, I hope God will bless your time here and that you in turn will be a blessing to those here.

Note v.13, where we see that the Old Testament Saints did not receive the promises, and in vv.38-39 we see they were "not made perfect:"


Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


"Perfection" in Hebrews refers to completion, a bringing to an end (the words in blue are links to Strong's Concordance). If we back up a Chapter we find what I view to be the most clear statement of Eternal Security in Scripture, and it deals with the theme of Perfection:


Hebrews 10:1-14 King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


He makes a pretty simple statement: "The Sacrifices of the Law can never take away sins and bring completion to that for which they were offered...remission of sins."

He asks the question, "Wouldn't they have stopped if they had?"



5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.


Christ came to do God's will. And what He came to do had not been accomplished before.


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Christ fulfilling God's will made it possible for men to be made holy, set apart unto God once, as opposed to the continual process of forgiveness we see under the Law and before (and one must keep in mind that the Book of Hebrews was written to Hebrew People, and is relevant to the Hebrew People only at the time of the writing, hence the Covenant of Law is the relevant Covenant in the Book. That does not mean we do not include the need for remission of sins to those who transgressed prior to the establishment of the Law).

So we, believers, are sanctified unto God once ("for all" is an insertion and not found in the text, but is an apt insertion because the Writer makes it clear this is a finishing, the bringing to an end the need to offer up sacrifice for remission of sins).

He once again calls a contrast into view of the sacrifices of the Law and the Sacrifice of Christ:


11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.


Again, the sacrifices of the Law could not take away sins. Contrasted with the Sacrifice of Christ which takes away sins...for ever.

Now, let me show you v.1 again before we get to our key verse in regards to Perfection:


Hebrews 10:1-14 King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


Now see the contrast:


14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Again, this is, from my view, the clearest and most incontrovertible statement of Eternal Security in all of Scripture. What He has just told us is "The sacrifices of the Law could never with those sacrifices bring to an end the need for sacrifice for sin, that remission of sins be granted, but...

...the Sacrifice of Christ makes one perfect, complete forever in regards to remission of sins."

Now, in regards to the Old Testament Saint, they were not made perfect without us, which means they did not, during their lifetimes, and prior to Christ dying in their stead...

...receive Remission of Sins (The Atonement) until Christ actually died for them.

They were made perfect...


Hebrews 12:22-23 King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


...but this was retroactive. When Christ died on the Cross He went to Hades and liberated the Just that had died in faith, who had not received the promises or made perfect in their lifetimes. Having made manifest the way into the Holiest of All (Heaven, Hebrews 9:8-9, 24; Hebrews 10:19-20) through the Atonement, by which men now receive the Reconciliation and are brought into Eternal Union with God...those just persons are now with the Lord in Heaven, and when we die in Christ now, we too go to be with Him in Heaven.

Again, they were not made perfect, nor did they receive the promises. Here is a significant promise made to Israel (and by extension all who are of faith in Christ):


Hebrews 10:15-18 King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


If we keep Hebrews 10 in context we can see, irrefutably, that those sanctified by the Sacrifice of Christ have been made complete in regards to remission of sins. That is why...

...there is no more offering for sin (sacrifice). As He said, "It is finished." He is the Author and Finisher (Completer) of our faith.

And our conclusion?

Jesus saves!


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Welcome to the Forum, JS, I hope God will bless your time here and that you in turn will be a blessing to those here.

Note v.13, where we see that the Old Testament Saints did not receive the promises, and in vv.38-39 we see they were "not made perfect:"


Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


"Perfection" in Hebrews refers to completion, a bringing to an end (the words in blue are links to Strong's Concordance). If we back up a Chapter we find what I view to be the most clear statement of Eternal Security in Scripture, and it deals with the theme of Perfection:


Hebrews 10:1-14 King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


He makes a pretty simple statement: "The Sacrifices of the Law can never take away sins and bring completion to that for which they were offered...remission of sins."

He asks the question, "Wouldn't they have stopped if they had?"



5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.


Christ came to do God's will. And what He came to do had not been accomplished before.


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Christ fulfilling God's will made it possible for men to be made holy, set apart unto God once, as opposed to the continual process of forgiveness we see under the Law and before (and one must keep in mind that the Book of Hebrews was written to Hebrew People, and is relevant to the Hebrew People only at the time of the writing, hence the Covenant of Law is the relevant Covenant in the Book. That does not mean we do not include the need for remission of sins to those who transgressed prior to the establishment of the Law).

So we, believers, are sanctified unto God once ("for all" is an insertion and not found in the text, but is an apt insertion because the Writer makes it clear this is a finishing, the bringing to an end the need to offer up sacrifice for remission of sins).

He once again calls a contrast into view of the sacrifices of the Law and the Sacrifice of Christ:


11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.


Again, the sacrifices of the Law could not take away sins. Contrasted with the Sacrifice of Christ which takes away sins...for ever.

Now, let me show you v.1 again before we get to our key verse in regards to Perfection:


Hebrews 10:1-14 King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


Nos see the contrast:


14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Again, this is, from my view, the clearest and most incontrovertible statement of Eternal Security in all of Scripture. What He has just told us is "The sacrifices of the Law could never with those sacrifices bring to an end the need for sacrifice for sin, that remission of sins be granted, but...

...the Sacrifice of Christ makes one perfect, complete forever in regards to remission of sins."

Now, in regards to the Old Testament Saint, they were not made perfect without us, which means they did not, during their lifetimes, and prior to Christ dying in their stead...

...receive Remission of Sins (The Atonement) until Christ actually died for them.

They were made perfect...


Hebrews 12:22-23 King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


...but this was retroactive. When Christ died on the Cross He went to Hades and liberated the Just that had died in faith, who had not received the promises or made perfect in their lifetimes. Having made manifest the way into the Holiest of All (Heaven, Hebrews 9:8-9, 24; Hebrews 10:19-20) through the Atonement, by which men now receive the Reconciliation and are brought into Eternal Union with God...those just persons are now with the Lord in Heaven, and when we die in Christ now, we too go to be with Him in Heaven.


God bless.

They were saved by the Grace of the Cross of Christ yet to come, but could not experience the fullness of their salvation until Jesus had actually come into history and done the finished work of the Cross.

 

[Jesus Saves!]

I think we seem to be pretty much in agreement. They couldn't receive the promise until Christ shed his blood and rose from the grave. I believe when Abraham was taking Issac to the sacrifice, he was looking toward Calvary. The best I can recall he told Issac that God would provide himself a lamb. It was a ram that was in the thicket. This ram couldn't take away sin. Jesus had to defeat death He was the first fruits among those who slept in the faith.

 

[Jesus Saves!]

Darrel C, thanks for the welcome. This forum causes me to read and study more. Just here to share and learn. I think we'll be learning til we leave here.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrel C, thanks for the welcome. This forum causes me to read and study more. Just here to share and learn. I think we'll be learning til we leave here.

Forum discussion is possibly the greatest accelerator of learning that I think any Bible Student can engage in. It will force you to "hit the Books," lol. We learn better, I think, when the beliefs we have are challenged, and who better to challenge those beliefs than those of opposing views? Your doctrine will either stand on the Word of God or it will fall. And if one is not more loyal to their System of Theology, church, indoctrination, or ego than they are to the Word of God and Christ, they will soon see their doctrine made strong.

One bit of advice I would give is that as you respond to posts, address the post, not the poster. Keep it doctrinal. That is the focus.

Of course, if you have to yank a few chains, that can be fun too.




God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

I think we seem to be pretty much in agreement. They couldn't receive the promise until Christ shed his blood and rose from the grave. I believe when Abraham was taking Issac to the sacrifice, he was looking toward Calvary. The best I can recall he told Issac that God would provide himself a lamb. It was a ram that was in the thicket. This ram couldn't take away sin. Jesus had to defeat death He was the first fruits among those who slept in the faith.

They were saved, but were not yet able to go straight to heaven, nor to have all spiritual blessings in Christ as we do now!

 

[Protestant]

Darryl expends much valuable time and energy to defend the indefensible: Old Testament saints were unregenerate.

Darryl wrote: “The reason they believe men were regenerated in the Old Testament is not because they have a Biblical basis for this view...but because their church fathers told them this is what they must believe.”

Once again, Darryl uses the same tactics refined by his Jesuit mentors: Obfuscate, and then strenuously deny obvious biblical truth.

To those who have ears to hear, Jesus stated an essential fundamental Christian truth when He taught:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Those not born of the Spirit are still in the flesh.

Those still in the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8:9).

Why? Because in the flesh dwelleth no good thing (Romans 8:18).

The mind of the fleshly, unregenerate man is enmity against God (Romans 8:7).

Furthermore, the natural, fleshly, unregenerate man does not receive or believe the things of God, including the Gospel. They are considered foolishness to him.

Why? Because he lacks the Holy Spirit necessary to understand and believe them (1 Cor. 2:4).

Without Holy Ghost regeneration no man would understand, let alone come to faith (Romans 3:11).

As it is impossible for a corrupt tree to bring forth good fruit, it is equally impossible for a corrupt, unregenerate man to bring forth faith, a good and holy fruit (Matthew 7:18).

Man is born naturally corrupt; his thoughts, desires and efforts are all directed to fulfilling the desires and lusts of his flesh, which earn him the wrath of God (Ephesians 2:3).

Thus, the need for all men, Old Testament and New, to be regenerated and born anew from above before saving faith can be birthed through hearing the Word.

To disregard and reject this essential Christian truth is to deny biblical Christianity.

Sadly, most of what passes for ‘Christianity’ today is anything but.

 

[loDebar]

Heb 11:1¶
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2
For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Heb 12:1¶
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

1Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Mat 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

OT saints and many others are in Heaven because of Faith in Jesus as explained to them personally

 

[terrpn]

Sin in the OT was forgiven based on adhering to the law, sacrifices, etc.- God forgave sin, but did not clear their sin. Nobody went to Heaven in the OT.........they all went DOWN- Abraham's Bosum.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

There is a difference between OT and NT salvation, just as salvation during the Tribulation and a 2nd Rapture.

Enoch, Elijah..........think I am missing one were the exceptions.

Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

There was no body for a believer to be "born again" into the Old Covenant............

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Hebrews 9:15-18 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Hebrews 10:9-10 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[loDebar]

No, God does not have favor, All are saved the same way, Faith in Jesus Christ, The OT that found favor of God were preached to by Jesus after the crucifixion before ascension.

 

[Yeshua1]

Sin in the OT was forgiven based on adhering to the law, sacrifices, etc.- God forgave sin, but did not clear their sin. Nobody went to Heaven in the OT.........they all went DOWN- Abraham's Bosum.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

There is a difference between OT and NT salvation, just as salvation during the Tribulation and a 2nd Rapture.

Enoch, Elijah..........think I am missing one were the exceptions.

Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

There was no body for a believer to be "born again" into the Old Covenant............

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Hebrews 9:15-18 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Hebrews 10:9-10 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The OT believers had faith in the promised Messiah to come, as God credited Abrham for faith, by grace, not per Law keeping!
NO person ever saved was by any kind of law keeping!

 

[terrpn]

The OT believers had faith in the promised Messiah to come, as God credited Abrham for faith, by grace, not per Law keeping!
NO person ever saved was by any kind of law keeping!

OT salvation was faith plus works- let me re-clarify.

You are correct- scribal error, was putting the law and sacrifices in one bag, which they are different. Those who entered into salvation in the Old Testament were those who trusted the merits of the blood of Jesus Christ, and they demonstrated their faith by bringing a lamb and slaying it.

There is no fellowship with God until the blood is applied-

Fellowship with God implies obedience to his laws- Exodus 24:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

Hebrews 9:19-22 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.



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[loDebar]

OT salvation was faith plus works- let me re-clarify.

You are correct- scribal error, was putting the law and sacrifices in one bag, which they are different. Those who entered into salvation in the Old Testament were those who trusted the merits of the blood of Jesus Christ, and they demonstrated their faith by bringing a lamb and slaying it.

There is no fellowship with God until the blood is applied-

Fellowship with God implies obedience to his laws- Exodus 24:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

Hebrews 9:19-22 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.



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That would be different than NT, Faith alone saved. Works are because of Faith. We act because we believe, not in order to believe.

 

[Yeshua1]

That would be different than NT, Faith alone saved. Works are because of Faith. We act because we believe, not in order to believe.

I think that he is saying that they showed geniune faith by going thru with blood sacrifices!

 

[loDebar]

I think that he is saying that they showed geniune faith by going thru with blood sacrifices!

But some were not required to make sacrifices.....

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Paul was very clear that the Gospel was preached to Abraham.
Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. (KJV)

Abraham was saved by believing in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ just the same as we are today.

 

[Yeshua1]

Paul was very clear that the Gospel was preached to Abraham.
Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. (KJV)

Abraham was saved by believing in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ just the same as we are today.

He was saved in the same fashion as we are, but we are under a much superior Covenat tha he was!