Questions and answers with Jeremiah2911 and others

Oh, I thought justification began with election? Oh, I thought justification was progressive and so if it began with election then it was present and progressive when he was not yet born, born but not yet spiritually alive, spiritually alive but not yet believing, believing but not yet baptized, baptized but not yet finished living a faithful life on earth, finished living a faithful life on earth but not yet out of purgatory, out of purgatory but not yet standing in the day of judgement, standing in the day of judgement but not yet justified completely????

Stop playing mind games! If justification cannot exist in the elect until there is faith in the elect as you say "You cannot be justified without faith" then is a man justified at the POINT of when he is sustitated/quickened but not yet believed? No! Then is a man justififed when he is sustitated/quickened and chooses to believe but is not yet baptized?

 

Our discussion from the beginning has NEVER ONCE been about the
the mind of God but about what happens IN man. Now you change the subject completely to about what happens IN God's mind when that subject was NEVER the topic between us but the sole topic is what happens IN man's experience.

If I have to prove this point then this discussion has turned into something absudly rediculous.

Thus we are not in that state at some point or else no need for a call to come into that state at some point. At what point do we ENTER into that state? Were we naturally born into that state at birth! Were we called into that state while spiritually dead? Were we called into that state when made spiritually alive but undecisive until we believed? Were we called into that state when we were baptized? AT what point did we enter into that state???

Prior to bringing about faith were we justified? If not, then did we enter into that progressive state WHEN we believed or WHEN we were baptized?

You cannot argue that we were ALWAYS in that progressive state IF there is no justification where there is not faith. If you argue we were ALWAYS in that progressive state then we NEVER unbelievers at any time IF there is no justification where there is not faith as you admit.

 

Biblicist,

I never said the things which you say that I did. Please correct the above post of your.

Thanks!

 

When I responded to your post I had placed your heading on copy in order to paste. So when I changed over to this thread I forgot it was still on copy and so I though I was pasting his heading. My apologies it was not intentional.

 

Have I ever asked what point when we END justification?????? So why do you ask?

Has not my question since I posted the four different states of our condition [(1) unregnerated (2) regenerated to choose; (3) believing but unbaptized; (4) baptized] consistently been at which of these points does justification begin?

Have I ever asked if it began in regard to a PLAN in God's mind? No, never!

In this response you have confirmed all four different aspects. Now, the question simple. At which point did the elect enter into justification in regard to his EXPERIENCE as described under those four different points?

If as you say where there is no faith there is no justification, then obviously that point of entrance into justification could not possibly be at points 1 or 2 because no faith existed in the person at points 1 and 2.

That leaves only points 3 and 4. You agree that faith is the choice after being resusitated (quickened) and such faith is present in the heart ("with the heart man believeth] prior to being baptized as baptism simply makes that faith visibly manifested.

Hence, the question is simple. Did the believer enter into the state of justification in regard to his own person, when faith was conceived in the heart prior to baptism or when faith was expressed in baptism?

 

Finally, a straight answer! However, you cannot have TWO different STARTING places unless you are making a difference between INTERNAL versus EXTERNAL starting places.

Regardless, you admit it actually and really starts first in the heart (Rom. 10:10) before baptism. Thank you!

 

:laugh: I only asked one question to begin this three ring circus! When does justification begin with the four stated options. Never asked when it began in regard to God or His mind. Never asked about when it concluded. Never asked anything but one question in regard to four stated options.

Pleeeeeese give me a break!

 

And what aspect of salvation does not?

Anyone could read my question in the context I purposely placed it (four points) and could see precisely and exactly that my question had to do only in man on earth as perceived in those four clearly defined stages. Takes no genius to miss something so glaringly evident. To say my questions were lacking really means lacking in YOUR MIND because YOU did not want to deal with the FIXED and OBVIOUS context I restricted that ONE SINGLE QUESTION (not plural questions) to!

There is no sense to further this discussion because from this point forward it is going to be heavy winds of disagreement and I think you realized that and that is precisely why you broadened the area instead of answering a specific singular question in a detailed but constricted outlined four point precision context.

I understand your position very well, although, I will not be suprised that you will claim I don't - no matter how long I let you repeat over and over again your position. Substantially, you have said very little than what I first perceive in reading the CCC. However, you have provided nuances that helped clarify it and I thank you for that.

 

Here is evidence that YOU provided these stages not I and agreed to them.

1. Dead before sustitation - Does it begin Here?


I am dead. In order to have faith, God in a way resusitates me and offers me faith which the only reasonable response is to accept it. - Post #53

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
So, in effect you have spiritual quickening without faith as it is the prequisite for faith to even exist.

"Yes exactly as it says in the Catachism" - TS - Post #58


2. Quickened but without faith - Does it begin here?

This is very similar in one sense to my position that spiritual life (regeneration) precedes judicial life by conversion (faith and repentance), therefore being the cause of repentance and faith. - TB

"Yes it is the same." - TS #58

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
I mean does God directly quicken the dead sinner apart from the use of any instrumental means between God and that person (e.g. church, actions by church through ministry, preaching the gospel, etc.)? Remember, I am asking this in the context of PRIOR to faith, PRIOR to sacraments.

Yes. God pre-empts the action before anything else. Someone can preach all day long to you and unless you are quickened it wouldn't mean a thing. And by quickened I mean the Holy Spirit infusing you with Grace. - TS Post#62

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Alright, let us proceed to another point. Thus far, you have man quickened directly by God apart from any instrumental means so that he can choose to respond in faith prior to baptism and as a result of choosing to believe that initial life is confirmed through faith. - Correct?

Yes. - TS (Post #68)

Quote by The Biblicist
QUESTION: Is there a possibility that the temporary quickening which provides ability to believe could be rejected by a response of unbelief rather than faith?

"Yes though not reasonable" - TS (Post #68)


3. Quickened with faith but BEFORE baptism - Does it begin here?

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Alright, let us proceed to another point. Thus far, you have man quickened directly by God apart from any instrumental means so that he can choose to respond in faith prior to baptism and as a result of choosing to believe that initial life is confirmed through faith. - Correct?

Yes. - TS (Post #68)




4. Quickened with faith IN baptism - Does it begin here?

I am dead. In order to have faith, God in a way resusitates me and offers me faith which the only reasonable response is to accept it. This comes to fulness in faith responding to God and meeting him in baptism which grants me a fuller life and entry into Kingdom of God. - TS (Post #53)


It is very very easy to see that you agreed to a specific four step process.

1. Spiritual dead
2. Resusitated/quicked in order to choose life
3. faith in the heart before baptism
4. Quickened with faith in baptism.


The following post by itself proves you have agreed to such an order:

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Alright, let us proceed to another point. Thus far,[1 & 2] you have man quickened directly by God apart from any instrumental means so that he can choose to respond in faith prior to baptism and [3] as a result of choosing to believe that initial life is confirmed through faith. - Correct?

Yes. - TS (Post #68)

 

Boy!!!! I never asked you to define WHAT justification IS!

I never asked you to LIMIT justification to these four stages! Because I know you do not limit it but believe it is progressive.

I asked you when did initial justification begin in regard to these four stages with man!!!!

 

So just for the record, just for clarity. Since you have stated that there can be no justification where there is no faith:

You cannot be justified without faith - TS (Post #80).

Since you have stated that faith exists BEFORE baptism:

He then provides the faith which will bring about the Justification. I can either accept or decline that faith. Accepting the faith brings me to the path of New life entered in with at its receipt that faith brings about justification by leading me to God through baptism . - TS (Post #82)

Since you have stated that justification begins at TWO different places:

The Believer entered into the state of Justifaction when he accepted faith in his heart and when faith fruit fulfilled at baptism. - TS (Post #88)

Will you deny that INITIAL justification began when faith began in the heart - "with the heart man believeth" (Rom. 10:10)???? or will you assert that justification INITIALLY began IN baptism AFTER faith was previously bestowed in the heart, since you admit that faith in the heart does in fact PRECEDE baptism????

You cannot argue logically or Scripturally that faith begins simeltaneously in the heart in baptism simply because Romans 10:10 provides the order of "with the heart believeth" followed by "with the mouth confession is made" and no one administers baptism unless they first have a profession of faith that warrants administration of baptism as baptism is not for unrepentant unbelievers.