Questions and answers with Jeremiah2911 and others

[The Biblicist]

You cannot be justified without faith.

Oh, I thought justification began with election? Oh, I thought justification was progressive and so if it began with election then it was present and progressive when he was not yet born, born but not yet spiritually alive, spiritually alive but not yet believing, believing but not yet baptized, baptized but not yet finished living a faithful life on earth, finished living a faithful life on earth but not yet out of purgatory, out of purgatory but not yet standing in the day of judgement, standing in the day of judgement but not yet justified completely????

Stop playing mind games! If justification cannot exist in the elect until there is faith in the elect as you say "You cannot be justified without faith" then is a man justified at the POINT of when he is sustitated/quickened but not yet believed? No! Then is a man justififed when he is sustitated/quickened and chooses to believe but is not yet baptized?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Oh, I thought justification began with election? Oh, I thought justification was progressive and so if it began with election then it was present and progressive when he was not yet born, born but not yet spiritually alive, spiritually alive but not yet believing, believing but not yet baptized, baptized but not yet finished living a faithful life on earth, finished living a faithful life on earth but not yet out of purgatory, out of purgatory but not yet standing in the day of judgement, standing in the day of judgement but not yet justified completely????

You are the one running around in circles. Here let me explain it this way. To whom are you Justified? So where does justification begin and end with the Justified or the Justifier? In order to be justified we must be so in the mind of God. Not of ourselves so that we can't go around boasting before God. So in the Mind of God he begins for each of us the process at our election God wants to justify me. He then causes me to come to the state in which I can understand his call to Justification. He then provides the faith which will bring about the Justification. I can either accept or decline that faith. Accepting the faith brings me to the path of New life entered in with at its receipt that faith brings about justification by leading me to God through baptism being at that point fully justified yet if I fall (sin) my justification not complete and I repent I am at once justified before God. And when I have died in this state of Sanctified Grace I am fully justified as I was at baptism. God then judges me Justified. But it all starts and ends with him. Not with me Which is why your questions are so confusing or misguided. I think you are trying to prove something that isnt.

Stop playing mind games!

No games.

If justification cannot exist in the elect until there is faith in the elect as you say "You cannot be justified without faith" then is a man justified at the POINT of when he is sustitated/quickened but not yet believed? No!

You are the one playing games with your term intitial justification or begins. Is your question when a man is fully Justified? When it bares the fruit of Baptism. And again at a life lived for God that has had its consumation. You are asking about the begining of justification but want answers for the Completion of it. I think you're confused.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are the one running around in circles. Here let me explain it this way. To whom are you Justified? So where does justification begin and end with the Justified or the Justifier? In order to be justified we must be so in the mind of God.

Our discussion from the beginning has NEVER ONCE been about the
the mind of God but about what happens IN man. Now you change the subject completely to about what happens IN God's mind when that subject was NEVER the topic between us but the sole topic is what happens IN man's experience.

If I have to prove this point then this discussion has turned into something absudly rediculous.

He then causes me to come to the state in which I can understand his call to Justification.

Thus we are not in that state at some point or else no need for a call to come into that state at some point. At what point do we ENTER into that state? Were we naturally born into that state at birth! Were we called into that state while spiritually dead? Were we called into that state when made spiritually alive but undecisive until we believed? Were we called into that state when we were baptized? AT what point did we enter into that state???

He then provides the faith which will bring about the Justification.

Prior to bringing about faith were we justified? If not, then did we enter into that progressive state WHEN we believed or WHEN we were baptized?

You cannot argue that we were ALWAYS in that progressive state IF there is no justification where there is not faith. If you argue we were ALWAYS in that progressive state then we NEVER unbelievers at any time IF there is no justification where there is not faith as you admit.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Biblicist,

I never said the things which you say that I did. Please correct the above post of your.

Thanks!

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist,

I never said the things which you say that I did. Please correct the above post of your.

Thanks!

When I responded to your post I had placed your heading on copy in order to paste. So when I changed over to this thread I forgot it was still on copy and so I though I was pasting his heading. My apologies it was not intentional.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Our discussion from the beginning has NEVER ONCE been about the
the mind of God but about what happens IN man. Now you change the subject completely to about what happens IN God's man when that subject was NEVER the topic between us but the sole topic is what happens IN man's experience.

If I have to prove this point then this discussion has turned into something absudly rediculous.

I gave you the benefit of a doubt that you where not whom I supposed you were at the begining of this discussion and have since been civilized towards you. However comments like this make me wonder. It is clear from my post that I have not said that the mind of God was our discussion. You can clearly tell from my post than in order to explain justification I commented that you were becoming confused because you keep insisting on knowing the begining of Justification. Which I said is in God. However, what you are really trying to get at is the completion of Justification. So your questions are misleading. If you want to know where Justification begins it begins with God. If you want to know where Justification is completed I told you at baptism which is the fruit of it or (depending on circumstance) at the consumation of the Christian life. When God determines our Justification. You want to make the conversation into something else but. I've explained clearly.

Thus we are not in that state at some point or else no need for a call to come into that state at some point. At what point do we ENTER into that state? Were we naturally born into that state at birth!

What state are you talking about? Where God is working his grace so that you can accept his faith? Or where you receive faith? Or where you consumate the faith with the fruit of baptism? Which are you trying to get at?

Were we called into that state while spiritually dead?

At a point where we are spiritually dead the Holy Spirit must needs work to give us that life where we can both compreshend and choose faith. Until that nothing has begun save our election at which point eternal life will be with held.

Were we called into that state when made spiritually alive but undecisive until we believed?

There is no choice when you are dead in sin.

Were we called into that state when we were baptized?

At baptism we are Justified.

AT what point did we enter into that state???

Which one? Again do you want the begining of Justification or the End of it? I would say upon accepting that faith you are Heaven bound. But the process begins before that.

 

[The Biblicist]

Again do you want the begining of Justification or the End of it? I would say upon accepting that faith you are Heaven bound. But the process begins before that.

Have I ever asked what point when we END justification?????? So why do you ask?

Has not my question since I posted the four different states of our condition [(1) unregnerated (2) regenerated to choose; (3) believing but unbaptized; (4) baptized] consistently been at which of these points does justification begin?

Have I ever asked if it began in regard to a PLAN in God's mind? No, never!

In this response you have confirmed all four different aspects. Now, the question simple. At which point did the elect enter into justification in regard to his EXPERIENCE as described under those four different points?

If as you say where there is no faith there is no justification, then obviously that point of entrance into justification could not possibly be at points 1 or 2 because no faith existed in the person at points 1 and 2.

That leaves only points 3 and 4. You agree that faith is the choice after being resusitated (quickened) and such faith is present in the heart ("with the heart man believeth] prior to being baptized as baptism simply makes that faith visibly manifested.

Hence, the question is simple. Did the believer enter into the state of justification in regard to his own person, when faith was conceived in the heart prior to baptism or when faith was expressed in baptism?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Have I ever asked what point when we END justification?????? So why do you ask?

because of your statements

Oh, I thought justification began with election? Oh, I thought justification was progressive and so if it began with election then it was present and progressive when he was not yet born, born but not yet spiritually alive, spiritually alive but not yet believing, believing but not yet baptized, baptized but not yet finished living a faithful life on earth, finished living a faithful life on earth but not yet out of purgatory, out of purgatory but not yet standing in the day of judgement, standing in the day of judgement but not yet justified completely????

If you would have placed it at point one you would have a spiritual dead man justified

If you would have placed it at point two you would have living but unbelieving man justified

If you would have placed it at point three you would have an unbaptized man justified by faith

If you would have placed it at point four you would have had a spiritually alive believing man in point three but not justified.

It seems you want to know when a person is totally Justified rather than when the process begins. The process begins with God as I have consistently said. The first 4 points of justification actually covers this

1.Since justification as an application of the Redemption to the individual presupposes the fall of the entire human race, therefore Justification begins with the fundamental statement that original sin has weakened and deflected, but not entirely destroyed or extinguished the freedom of the human will
2.The Children of Adam could not of themselves arise from their fall nor shake off the bonds of sin, death, and Satan. Neither the natural faculties left in man, nor the observance of the Jewish Law could achieve this.
3. Since God alone was able to free us from this great misery, He sent in His infinite love His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, Who by His bitter passion and death on the cross redeemed fallen man and thus became the Mediator between God and man. But if the grace of Redemption merited by Christ is to be appropriated by the individual, he must be "regenerated by God", that is he must be justified.
4.Justification denotes that change or transformation in the soul by which man is transferred from the state of original sin, in which as a child of Adam he was born, to that of grace and Divine sonship through Jesus Christ, the second Adam, our Redeemer.

It is clear then that the start of Justification begins with God. He regenerates the man who is to be justified and starts the process in the man and the process is complete (total Justification at Baptism or at the consumation of the Christian life. IE ...

The next step is a genuine sorrow for all sin with the resolution to begin a new life by receiving holy baptism and by observing the commandments of God. The process of justification is then brought to a close by the baptism of water, inasmuch as by the grace of this sacrament the catechumen is freed from sin (original and personal) and its punishments, and is made a child of God.

My answers have been consistent. Not your questions. Let me put it to you this way. I will suggest a destination for each of your points

Has not my question since I posted the four different states of our condition [(1) unregnerated

Hell

(2) regenerated to choose;

Depends if a choice is made upon no choice made and no special Grace Hell

(3) believing but unbaptized;

heaven

(4) baptized]

consistently been at which of these points does justification begin?

Have I ever asked if it began in regard to a PLAN in God's mind?

The process of Justification begins there! You are asking the wrong questions if you are not being answered.

Now, the question simple. At which point did the elect enter into justification in regard to his EXPERIENCE as described under those four different points?

according to whose experience? A man may experience a justification cleansing at the hearing of God's word but not be Justified before God. Contrarily a man may be justified and not yet be baptized because of his faith. However, the fruit and consumation or completion of justification is in baptism or the consumation of that life. Depending.

Hence, the question is simple. Did the believer enter into the state of justification in regard to his own person, when faith was conceived in the heart prior to baptism or when faith was expressed in baptism?

Absolutely YES! The Believer entered into the state of Justifaction when he accepted faith in his heart and when faith fruit fulfilled at baptism.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Believer entered into the state of Justifaction when he accepted faith in his heart and when faith fruit fulfilled at baptism.

Finally, a straight answer! However, you cannot have TWO different STARTING places unless you are making a difference between INTERNAL versus EXTERNAL starting places.

Regardless, you admit it actually and really starts first in the heart (Rom. 10:10) before baptism. Thank you!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Finally, a straight answer! However, you cannot have TWO different STARTING places unless you are making a difference between INTERNAL versus EXTERNAL starting places.

Regardless, you admit it actually and really starts first in the heart (Rom. 10:10) before baptism. Thank you!

You've been given straight answers. You weren't asking the right question. And I have always asserted justification begins before baptism and finds its completion there save if you fall away and repent then at each repentance until the consumation of your earthly life.

 

[The Biblicist]

You've been given straight answers. You weren't asking the right question. And I have always asserted justification begins before baptism and finds its completion there save if you fall away and repent then at each repentance until the consumation of your earthly life.

:laugh: I only asked one question to begin this three ring circus! When does justification begin with the four stated options. Never asked when it began in regard to God or His mind. Never asked about when it concluded. Never asked anything but one question in regard to four stated options.

Pleeeeeese give me a break!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

:laugh: I only asked one question to begin this three ring circus! When does justification begin with the four stated options. Never asked when it began in regard to God or His mind. Never asked about when it concluded. Never asked anything but one question in regard to four stated options.

Pleeeeeese give me a break!

But the process of Justification begins with God in God's mind at his election so on and so forth. What you wanted to know is at what point does Justification efficiate the reception of heaven. So your questions were lacking. Again you don't want to know at which point justification started. Because its starts with God.

 

[The Biblicist]

But the process of Justification begins with God in God's mind at his election so on and so forth.

And what aspect of salvation does not?

What you wanted to know is at what point does Justification efficiate the reception of heaven. So your questions were lacking. Again you don't want to know at which point justification started. Because its starts with God.

Anyone could read my question in the context I purposely placed it (four points) and could see precisely and exactly that my question had to do only in man on earth as perceived in those four clearly defined stages. Takes no genius to miss something so glaringly evident. To say my questions were lacking really means lacking in YOUR MIND because YOU did not want to deal with the FIXED and OBVIOUS context I restricted that ONE SINGLE QUESTION (not plural questions) to!

There is no sense to further this discussion because from this point forward it is going to be heavy winds of disagreement and I think you realized that and that is precisely why you broadened the area instead of answering a specific singular question in a detailed but constricted outlined four point precision context.

I understand your position very well, although, I will not be suprised that you will claim I don't - no matter how long I let you repeat over and over again your position. Substantially, you have said very little than what I first perceive in reading the CCC. However, you have provided nuances that helped clarify it and I thank you for that.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And what aspect of salvation does not?

None?

Anyone could read my question in the context I purposely placed it (four points) and could see precisely and exactly that my question had to do only in man on earth as perceived in those four clearly defined stages.

Those are the four stages you invented. I did not provide them for you. I wanted to be clear on terms as it seems you wanted to redefine things into your invented catagories. You clearly did not want the answer you were asking for but wanted the answer to efficatious Justification. But you asked At what point does justification begin. Then insisted thats what you wanted a simple reading over our dialogue will show you that.

Takes no genius to miss something so glaringly evident. To say my questions were lacking really means lacking in YOUR MIND because YOU did not want to deal with the FIXED and OBVIOUS context I restricted that ONE SINGLE QUESTION (not plural questions) to!

Not at all as when I determined what it was you really wanted apart from what you asked I answered your question as you acknowldeged I did. But before then you were asking the wrong question to which you got answers that were unlooked for.

There is no sense to further this discussion because from this point forward it is going to be heavy winds of disagreement and I think you realized that and that is precisely why you broadened the area instead of answering a specific

I can't see how I can have been more specific. I set the definitions. Answered each of your questions and then showed in your four step process which was invented by you which would lead to heaven and which would not. That's pretty specific.

I understand your position very well, although, I will not be suprised that you will claim I don't - no matter how long I let you repeat over and over again your position.

I don't see how as you keep trying to redefine terms to mean what you want them to mean and then you invent catagories and suggest its agreed to when in fact it wasn't. but I still used it to find out your real question and intent and still answered your question.

Substantially, you have said very little than what I first perceive in reading the CCC. However, you have provided nuances that helped clarify it and I thank you for that.

Well, I'm no scholar unlike yourself but I thank you for the complement.

 

[The Biblicist]

Those are the four stages you invented.

Here is evidence that YOU provided these stages not I and agreed to them.

1. Dead before sustitation - Does it begin Here?


I am dead. In order to have faith, God in a way resusitates me and offers me faith which the only reasonable response is to accept it. - Post #53

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
So, in effect you have spiritual quickening without faith as it is the prequisite for faith to even exist.

"Yes exactly as it says in the Catachism" - TS - Post #58


2. Quickened but without faith - Does it begin here?

This is very similar in one sense to my position that spiritual life (regeneration) precedes judicial life by conversion (faith and repentance), therefore being the cause of repentance and faith. - TB

"Yes it is the same." - TS #58

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
I mean does God directly quicken the dead sinner apart from the use of any instrumental means between God and that person (e.g. church, actions by church through ministry, preaching the gospel, etc.)? Remember, I am asking this in the context of PRIOR to faith, PRIOR to sacraments.

Yes. God pre-empts the action before anything else. Someone can preach all day long to you and unless you are quickened it wouldn't mean a thing. And by quickened I mean the Holy Spirit infusing you with Grace. - TS Post#62

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Alright, let us proceed to another point. Thus far, you have man quickened directly by God apart from any instrumental means so that he can choose to respond in faith prior to baptism and as a result of choosing to believe that initial life is confirmed through faith. - Correct?

Yes. - TS (Post #68)

Quote by The Biblicist
QUESTION: Is there a possibility that the temporary quickening which provides ability to believe could be rejected by a response of unbelief rather than faith?

"Yes though not reasonable" - TS (Post #68)


3. Quickened with faith but BEFORE baptism - Does it begin here?

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Alright, let us proceed to another point. Thus far, you have man quickened directly by God apart from any instrumental means so that he can choose to respond in faith prior to baptism and as a result of choosing to believe that initial life is confirmed through faith. - Correct?

Yes. - TS (Post #68)




4. Quickened with faith IN baptism - Does it begin here?

I am dead. In order to have faith, God in a way resusitates me and offers me faith which the only reasonable response is to accept it. This comes to fulness in faith responding to God and meeting him in baptism which grants me a fuller life and entry into Kingdom of God. - TS (Post #53)


It is very very easy to see that you agreed to a specific four step process.

1. Spiritual dead
2. Resusitated/quicked in order to choose life
3. faith in the heart before baptism
4. Quickened with faith in baptism.


The following post by itself proves you have agreed to such an order:

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Alright, let us proceed to another point. Thus far,[1 & 2] you have man quickened directly by God apart from any instrumental means so that he can choose to respond in faith prior to baptism and [3] as a result of choosing to believe that initial life is confirmed through faith. - Correct?

Yes. - TS (Post #68)

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Here is evidence that YOU provided these stages not I and agreed to them.

1. Dead before sustitation - Does it begin Here?


I am dead. In order to have faith, God in a way resusitates me and offers me faith which the only reasonable response is to accept it. - Post #53

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
So, in effect you have spiritual quickening without faith as it is the prequisite for faith to even exist.

"Yes exactly as it says in the Catachism" - TS - Post #58


2. Quickened but without faith - Does it begin here?

This is very similar in one sense to my position that spiritual life (regeneration) precedes judicial life by conversion (faith and repentance), therefore being the cause of repentance and faith. - TB

"Yes it is the same." - TS #58

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
I mean does God directly quicken the dead sinner apart from the use of any instrumental means between God and that person (e.g. church, actions by church through ministry, preaching the gospel, etc.)? Remember, I am asking this in the context of PRIOR to faith, PRIOR to sacraments.

Yes. God pre-empts the action before anything else. Someone can preach all day long to you and unless you are quickened it wouldn't mean a thing. And by quickened I mean the Holy Spirit infusing you with Grace. - TS Post#62

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Alright, let us proceed to another point. Thus far, you have man quickened directly by God apart from any instrumental means so that he can choose to respond in faith prior to baptism and as a result of choosing to believe that initial life is confirmed through faith. - Correct?

Yes. - TS (Post #68)

Quote by The Biblicist
QUESTION: Is there a possibility that the temporary quickening which provides ability to believe could be rejected by a response of unbelief rather than faith?

"Yes though not reasonable" - TS (Post #68)


3. Quickened with faith but BEFORE baptism - Does it begin here?

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Alright, let us proceed to another point. Thus far, you have man quickened directly by God apart from any instrumental means so that he can choose to respond in faith prior to baptism and as a result of choosing to believe that initial life is confirmed through faith. - Correct?

Yes. - TS (Post #68)




4. Quickened with faith IN baptism - Does it begin here?

I am dead. In order to have faith, God in a way resusitates me and offers me faith which the only reasonable response is to accept it. This comes to fulness in faith responding to God and meeting him in baptism which grants me a fuller life and entry into Kingdom of God. - TS (Post #53)


It is very very easy to see that you agreed to a specific four step process.

1. Spiritual dead
2. Resusitated/quicked in order to choose life
3. faith in the heart before baptism
4. Quickened with faith in baptism.


The following post by itself proves you have agreed to such an order:

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Alright, let us proceed to another point. Thus far,[1 & 2] you have man quickened directly by God apart from any instrumental means so that he can choose to respond in faith prior to baptism and [3] as a result of choosing to believe that initial life is confirmed through faith. - Correct?

Yes. - TS (Post #68)

When I defined Justification. How many points did I list? You provided the question and I provided an answer. I didn't come up with those steps you asked them of me. I didn't limit Justification to 4 time periods I just answered your question about each step you questioned me about. And we agreed that with each step you mentioned thats how it worked.

 

[The Biblicist]

I didn't limit Justification to 4 time periods I just answered your question about each step you questioned me about.

Boy!!!! I never asked you to define WHAT justification IS!

I never asked you to LIMIT justification to these four stages! Because I know you do not limit it but believe it is progressive.

I asked you when did initial justification begin in regard to these four stages with man!!!!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Boy!!!! I never asked you to define WHAT justification IS!

I never asked you to LIMIT justification to these four stages! Because I know you do not limit it but believe it is progressive.

I asked you when did initial justification begin in regard to these four stages with man!!!!

And I answered it.

 

[The Biblicist]

And I answered it.

So just for the record, just for clarity. Since you have stated that there can be no justification where there is no faith:

You cannot be justified without faith - TS (Post #80).

Since you have stated that faith exists BEFORE baptism:

He then provides the faith which will bring about the Justification. I can either accept or decline that faith. Accepting the faith brings me to the path of New life entered in with at its receipt that faith brings about justification by leading me to God through baptism . - TS (Post #82)

Since you have stated that justification begins at TWO different places:

The Believer entered into the state of Justifaction when he accepted faith in his heart and when faith fruit fulfilled at baptism. - TS (Post #88)

Will you deny that INITIAL justification began when faith began in the heart - "with the heart man believeth" (Rom. 10:10)???? or will you assert that justification INITIALLY began IN baptism AFTER faith was previously bestowed in the heart, since you admit that faith in the heart does in fact PRECEDE baptism????

You cannot argue logically or Scripturally that faith begins simeltaneously in the heart in baptism simply because Romans 10:10 provides the order of "with the heart believeth" followed by "with the mouth confession is made" and no one administers baptism unless they first have a profession of faith that warrants administration of baptism as baptism is not for unrepentant unbelievers.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So just for the record, just for clarity. Since you have stated that there can be no justification where there is no faith:

You cannot be justified without faith - TS (Post #80).

Since you have stated that faith exists BEFORE baptism:

He then provides the faith which will bring about the Justification. I can either accept or decline that faith. Accepting the faith brings me to the path of New life entered in with at its receipt that faith brings about justification by leading me to God through baptism . - TS (Post #82)

Since you have stated that justification begins at TWO different places:

The Believer entered into the state of Justifaction when he accepted faith in his heart and when faith fruit fulfilled at baptism. - TS (Post #88)

You are trying to "trap" me by my own words. You are not asking when Justification begins. You are asking when Justification is efficatious towards salvation in a particular believer. Lets us be clear about that. For I will always say Justification begins with God. But that's is not what you are asking. When someone accepts the faith given to him Justification is efficatious for him at that time to bring him towards Salvation. Baptism completes the circut so to speak. Not two different places. You are in fact speaking about two different things which is why I had to define Justification for you as I see it.

Will you deny that INITIAL justification began when faith began in the heart - "with the heart man believeth" (Rom. 10:10)????

I haven't yet why would I start now?

or will you assert that justification INITIALLY began IN baptism AFTER faith was previously bestowed in the heart, since you admit that faith in the heart does in fact PRECEDE baptism????

A man is Justified by faith. We know this Baptism is the entry door into the Kingdom. Thus the Justified man completes his justification at baptism.

You cannot argue logically or Scripturally that faith begins simeltaneously in the heart in baptism simply because Romans 10:10 provides the order of "with the heart believeth" followed by "with the mouth confession is made" and no one administers baptism unless they first have a profession of faith that warrants administration of baptism as baptism is not for unrepentant unbelievers.

Couple of misunderstanding that you have here. First you don't seem to believe that greater and greater amounts can be granted at certain phases in a believers life. Next, Baptism is not just a profession of faith but a meeting with Jesus himself in order that more grace be given the believer. Baptism is also the sealing of the New Covenant like Circumcision was in the OT. Second of all our faith is not just individualistic but also in community. Much like in circumsision was for the Jews. And the one thing you do have right is that Baptism isn't for People who have made the choice to be unrepentant unbelievers. It wouldn't be efficatious for them.