Questions and their Answers

[Darrell C]

“The way into the holiest of all” is said not to be manifested before the ascension of Christ (Heb. 9:8);

And you reject this in favor of a doctrine that doesn't agree with Catholics.

Great reason.

“The way into the holiest of all” is said not to be manifested before the ascension of Christ (Heb. 9:8); not that it was entirely concealed,

How hard is it to understand that when something is not made manifest...it isn't revealed?


Hebrews 9:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


It was a parable, not the reality.

It was entirely concealed. That is what it means to make something manifest. To reveal what is not known.

but (1) that it was not so clearly made known,

Twaddle. All they knew was that access to the presence of God was through that veil which only the High Priest could enter.

(1) that it was not so clearly made known, Therefore the fathers went into heaven through Christ

Come again? You're just told by Scripture that the way into Heaven was not made manifest and you conclude "the fathers went into Heaven through Christ?"

Correction, it was when Christ died that entrance to Heaven was made manifest:


Hebrews 10:19-20
King James Version (KJV)

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


"The Blood" and "His flesh" both refer to His death on the Cross.

but who was not yet clearly known because he had not yet come.

So let me see if I have your doctrine straight: The way into Heaven wasn't made manifest to men but they went to Heaven anyway because they were saved by Christ though He had not yet come.

Is that it?

That is completely the opposite of what Hebrews teaches, as well as what Christ and the Apostles taught. That is not Christian Doctrine, that is simply Christian confusion.


Galatians 4
King James Version (KJV)

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Were the disciples of Christ redeemed from the Law when they preached the Kingdom Gospel? Had they received the adoption of sons? Received the Holy Spirit that Christ makes it a point to teach will come after He returns to Heaven?

Your doctrine forces you to want to answer yes to these questions, but, Scripture will not allow it.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

(2) Again, it was not known to any of the Gentiles, as in the New Testament.

It wasn't revealed in understanding to either Jew or Gentile.

(3) It was not as yet manifested by the actual ransom of Christ (which had not yet been paid), but only as to efficacy of merit.

Superstitious mythology of the modern pulpit. False doctrine in contradiction to the teachings of Scripture.

(4) Time is not compared with time here, but rather the mosaic sacrifices with the sacrifice of Christ, to intimate they could not open heaven to us, which was granted to the blood of Christ alone.

And animal sacrifice is all they had. You teach the Old Testament saints benefited from the sacrifice of Christ when the fact is...they continued to offer up animals until Christ died.

Your doctrine stumbles all over itself. You can correct that simply embracing the teachings of the Bible.

. (5) If Christ is said to been the first who entered into heaven,

He is.

(5) If Christ is said to been the first who entered into heaven, this is to be understood not as to time, but as to causality because the entrance of Christ was the true cause of the fathers’ entrance into heaven, no less than ours……….

Show me that in Scripture, not the doctrines of your church fathers.

Then, show me why time is not an issue here:

Galatians 4
King James Version (KJV)

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Or here...


Galatians 3:16, 19
King James Version (KJV)

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


Or here...


Galatians 3:22-28
King James Version (KJV)

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Looks like time plays a pretty important part to Paul's teaching.

Let's go on:


26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


This correlates to Christ coming unto His Own and men believing on Him and then being born of God.


27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Show me the first Old Testament Saint baptized into Christ. Not even the disciples of Christ were, not according to Christ in John 14.


28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Show me the first Jew who was baptized into Christ. It was not until Christ died, arose, returned to Heaven, and began baptizing men with the Holy Ghost at Pentecost that both Jew and Gentile were made one with Him.

Just basic Biblical truth. Irrefutable. No man was in Christ prior to Christ coming.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

“The promise sometimes denotes the first advent of Christ in the flesh promised in the Old Testament;

That doesn't change the fact that the Old Testament Saints did not receive the promises.

So this smokescreen is moot.

sometimes the second in glory promised in the New.

Doesn't change the fact that the Gospel of Christ is the Hidden Wisdom of God...not revealed to saints or the sons of men in past Ages or generations.

The ancients died without “receiving the promise” (Heb. 11:39)

Not according to you and your Protestant doctrine.

namely, to be brought in the latter advent of the Lord (Heb. 10:36-37) –

False doctrine. We have received the Promises of God through Christ, just as every believer in Christ since Pentecost has.

That is why we call it the New Covenant.

which they are also about to receive;

Scripture?

but not without us,

The Old Testament Saints received the Promises "with us" in that they received the eternal inheritance promised of God through Christ...when He died for them. Their transgressions were redeemed and they were then taken to be with God in Heaven, and every Saint dying today goes there as well.

for what we now expect will be common to us with them.

The only things we are "expecting" is glorification and the Eternal State.

We have received the Gift of God, Eternal Life through Christ Jesus. That includes Atonement, Reconciliation, Eternal Life through eternal union with God.

If God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself...why do you deny that by imposing reconciliation into the Old Testament? It isn't there, only the expectation of redemption through the Christ.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Thus God has set before us “something better” (Heb. 11:40) with regard to the former advent, in which we alone rejoice.”

We have received that "something better." For Pete's sake stop reading the doctrine of church fathers and try reading Hebrews for a change.

Conclusion: The many errors of Roman Catholicism have penetrated into the evangelical churches.

On the contrary, errors of the Protestants have crept into the Catholic Church. You simply do not know how closely you and your Catholic Brethren resemble each other in your hermeneutics and doctrine.

They too like to spiritualize Scripture away.

This teaching of the Jesuits, embraced by Darryl, is but one of several.

Again a false charge and slander: my doctrine is quite a bit different from that of the Catholic. That the Catholic Church once held to doctrines that were correct, such as a pre-millennial view and that men did not go to Heaven until Christ died for them doesn't change the slowly evolved and deteriorated state of their doctrine, which wasn't just five hundred years ago but has grown worse. And we can thank Protestants for that in large part. You guys have more interest in showing each other wrong than you do in understanding the Word of God. That is why both of you rely on the teachings of men. That is all you have done, presented what Protestant fathers have taught. Why is that any different than the Catholic presenting what their fathers have taught?

NEXT: Was the Gospel a Mystery hidden from all people in Old Testament Times?

Answer: Yes.

1 Corinthians 2
King James Version (KJV)

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:


Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Ephesians 5:30-32
King James Version (KJV)

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


Colossians 1:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

That most do not understand that the Mystery of the Gospel was hidden from men is due in large part because the truth disrupts the doctrine men want to teach their adherents.

But it's right there for all to see. Only indoctrination or a natural mind blinds men from the truth.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The birth from above is known as the circumcision of the heart in the OT.

Ezekiel 44
Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,
7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.
8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves.
9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

The sanctuary is the two compartment Holy Place in the tabernacle/temple where the priests offered the blood sacrifice.
the Inner place where the high priest went once a year to offer the blood.

Being uncircumcised in heart simply meant that the person was not genuine. Being circumcised in the heart meant it was genuine. The charge here is that they did not take the will of God seriously.

This is not the new birth of the Old Testament, new birth began after Christ came:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


When did Christ come unto His Own? And are you aware that He ministered distinctly to Israel?


Matthew 15:24 King James Version (KJV)

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Correct except just like NC believers the second part after the birth from above is sanctification.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

It is necessary to understand the difference between Positional Sanctification and Progressive Sanctification.

Only those sanctified (positional) by the Sacrifice of Christ are regenerated.


1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

He doesn't, like I said sanctification has its reward.

no one regenerates themselves in either the Old or New Covenant. After the regeneration comes obedience in following.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The "regeneration" in view is the "reformation" that is promised in the Old Testament and speaks of the Millennial Kingdom when men will live longer lives, no longer be at enmity with animals (or they with each other) and Christ is reigning on the physical earth.

Regeneration (New Birth) is being born of God. This takes place when men believe on the Name of Jesus Christ.


God bless.

 

[HankD]

Different how?


God bless.

I'm not sure but a clue may be in David's request

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

 

[Deadworm]

The OP can be summarily dispatched by x points:
(2) Except for Daniel 12;1-3 no doctrine of an afterlife is taught in the OT. Can you say, "progressive revelation?"
(2) The Gospels and other NT writings teach that OT patriarchs are alive and soundly saved. Prior to His atoning death, Jesus too declares that they are alive.
(3) They could not be saved by being "born again" because the new birth implies a regenerating work of the Holy Spirit and the Spirit was not poured out until the Day of Pentecost.

 

[Darrell C]

I'm not sure but a clue may be in David's request

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

You have pointed out the very definition of why our salvation in Christ is different from salvation enjoyed by the Old Testament Saint while they were alive: the filling versus the eternal indwelling of God.

Would you, Hank, ask God not to take His Spirit from you? Do you think the Holy Spirit would leave you as He did King Saul?

Christ makes it clear that the presence of the Holy Spirit was different from what would take place after His Death, burial, and Resurrection, and specifically after He returned to Heaven and sent the Comforter:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Christ was also a Comforter, the Consolation of Israel, so remember that He comforts them due to their sorrow that He said He was leaving. This is basically saying "I am going away, but I will send another Comforter Who will be with you forever." This refers to the promise of the indwelling Spirit of God, which we know now is the guarantee of our salvation and does not end as the presence of God would in the Old Testament (such as in the case of Saul). The example of the Spirit departing from Saul is the likely cause for David's fear, but, you and I have no such fear because we know that when we are placed in Christ it is Eternal.

And if we keep reading we see that the disciples of Christ were not yet indwelt of God, and they were not yet...in Christ:


John 14:19-23
King James Version (KJV)

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Another difference is having eternal life. We are, according to Peter (1 Peter 1:3), born again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, meaning that is the cause for regeneration being available. In v.19 we see the promise of eternal life through the Resurrection. The disciples do not yet have life because Christ has not died, resurrected, returned to Heaven, and sent the Comforter.

"At that day" in v.20 speaks of the future, and it will be at that day, when they receive the Spirit of God...that they will "live."

The "manifestation" Christ refers to is the eternal indwelling of God, and if you take note you will see He is teaching the Trinity, for we are indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

That is a difference between the salvation of the Old Testament Saint and the salvation of the Saint of this Age, beginning with the Disciples themselves.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

And you will have an impossible task proving that God can be pleased without the Spirit and only the flesh to produce faith...

It's not impossible, because no-one in the Old Testament Eras (which end on the Day of Pentecost when the New Covenant begins with the sending of the Promised Spirit) had received the Spirit of God.

Secondly, even in the Old Testament no man had faith prior to God revealing His will that they might believe.

So the faith of the Old Testament Saint is no different than the faith we employ, both are the result of the revelation of God to man, and man's response to that which he has been shown. Now the big different between they and we is that the revelation we are provided with is the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel, which was not revealed to men in past Ages, generations, to the Saints or the sons of men, which is all inclusive of...everyone who ever lived.

Abraham placed faith in the promise of God that He would give him a son of His own bowels and that all nations of the earth would be blessed through him. So he heard the Gospel, but didn't understand it as we who have had the Mystery revealed to us do:


Galatians 3:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


We see that is the same reason here:


Romans 4:17-21
King James Version (KJV)

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.


In view is not Abraham having an understanding of something we are told numerous times was not revealed to men, but the promises we read about in both the Old Testament as well as in the commentary of the New.

This is why Abraham was justified:

Romans 4:22 King James Version (KJV)

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.


He was not justified through the Redemption which is Christ Jesus as we are:


Romans 3:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Abraham was "saved" in the sense that because of his faith and belief which was validated by His works...his eternal security was secured. However, that is not the same as being justified by grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. When Christ died on the Cross His righteousness was declared as the means of remission of sins of Abraham's transgressions.

So it is not Abraham's righteousness declared, but Christ's.


God bless.

 

[steaver]

I'm not sure but a clue may be in David's request

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

How about the full prophetic request.....

Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psa 51:7

Jer 31:31-33
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:.......But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Psa 51:8

Rev 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
Psa 51:9

Jhn 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.


Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Psa 51:10

Heb 8:12
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psa 51:11

Jer 31:31-33
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:.......But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

 

[Darrell C]

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

In view is being born from above, or in other words, born of God, or in other words, born of the Spirit, or in other words...born again.

Being born of God did not begin until Christ came, and more specifically, until He died and arose again:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


We are born again of the Gospel:


1 Peter 1:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


James 1:18 King James Version (KJV)

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Again, we must consider that God comes to us and provides the revelation necessary to generate faith.

He is Sovereign.

If they have ALREADY been born from above they will be able to obey God's requirement of Deuteronomy 10, if not they won't and show themselves for what they are.

Not necessarily: all believers begin as babes, ignorant in large part of righteousness and the will of God. And with the leadership the Church has, and has had, it is no wonder we are not seeing Saints who have exercised their senses to discern good and evil. Many times it is plain old common sense that is lacking.

Kind of like the New Covenant test to see who's who in the Kingdom.

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

This is not a test, it is a concrete declaration of Eternal Security by our Lord. The problem we would have with this test is that we would have to have a one shoe fits all salvation and robotic believers bereft of individuality. We would not have sons of thunder and men without guile, we would have one personality that would be easily identifiable.

I think that if Paul were alive today he would be hated by many "Christians."


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

If one has been born again that one follows Jesus, if not, they run off after the garbage truck.

Who determines how one follows Christ? Shall we deny born again believers from groups that do not "follow" as we do? Do the Christians that meet in the home have liberty to despise those who meet in buildings? Those who worship on Saturday can despise those who worship on Sunday, or vice versa?

The test is keeping the Word, the teachings of Christ.

Correct except just like NC believers the second part after the birth from above is sanctification.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live

We are Sanctified (positional) by the Sacrifice of Christ at salvation. We are sanctified (progressive) as we grow in Christ. That is a lifelong project under God's direction and it is neither ever finished nor has any Saint that has ever lived "...arrived."

He doesn't, like I said sanctification has its reward.

no one regenerates themselves in either the Old or New Covenant. After the regeneration comes obedience in following.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Again this is speaking of the Reformation of the physical world, which takes place when the Kingdom of God is established here on earth.


God bless.

 

[HankD]

You have pointed out the very definition of why our salvation in Christ is different from salvation enjoyed by the Old Testament Saint while they were alive: the filling versus the eternal indwelling of God.

Would you, Hank, ask God not to take His Spirit from you? Do you think the Holy Spirit would leave you as He did King Saul?

Christ makes it clear that the presence of the Holy Spirit was different from what would take place after His Death, burial, and Resurrection, and specifically after He returned to Heaven and sent the Comforter:

No, the Spirit of God will not leave me but could in affect be so grieved by me that His influence in my life could/would be quenched.

However, In any event, I would always have access to the very throne of God within the holy of holies because of the work of my great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

He would/will accompany me into the very presence of the Father upon my acknowledgement of sin and repentance thereof to bring me back to the place of fellowship and blessing.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

[Darrell C]

What I am seeing is two ppl high-fiving each other’s heresy. No one is saved w/o being regenerated. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness. No one declared righteous is not born again.

First, what is it that Abraham believed? That Jesus Christ died for his sin? Sorry, no. So you are going to have to admit that men can be saved apart from believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Secondly, you must acknowledge that men can be saved and not be reconciled to God, because Reconciliation is effected through the Atonement:


2 Corinthians 5:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Third, you must acknowledge that men can be saved and not be...in Christ. The indwelling of Christ most certainly began after there was a Christ. That is, when Christ came and dwelt among His Own. Were the disciples of Christ saved before they were Baptized with the Holy Ghost? Of course they were. Were they eternally redeemed?

No.

And that is what you don't understand.

See the "new creature" in v.17? How do you think men become new creatures? I'll give you a hint: by being in Christ, which takes place when men are reconciled to God.

So here is a simple question for you: if God was in Christ reconciling the world unto men...how is it that you teach they were already reconciled?


God bless.

 

[HankD]

Who determines how one follows Christ? Shall we deny born again believers from groups that do not "follow" as we do? Do the Christians that meet in the home have liberty to despise those who meet in buildings? Those who worship on Saturday can despise those who worship on Sunday, or vice versa?

The test is keeping the Word, the teachings of Christ.

Yes, but its a part of a greater truth, IMO the highest test is the presence of the fruit of the Spirit in one's life.

Namely agape-love 1 Corinthians 13

1 Corinthians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

 

[Darrell C]

No, the Spirit of God will not leave me but could in affect be so grieved by me that His influence in my life could/would be quenched.

That is almost correct: you are indwelt by God, David was not. You can be filled with the Spirit of God, so too could David.

But the Spirit of God will never, ever, ever...leave you. You have been brought into Eternal Union with God and Eternal means just that. You are in Christ, and He is in the Father. You can no more be cast out of the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost than the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost could be cast out of each other.

That is the magnitude of the Cross of Christ.

What is not correct is that His influence is not quenched, He is always going to have an influence on you. It is more a matter of your influence on the world would be quenched. Think of it like this, Hank, if a child refuses something mom and dad has taught them and in life commits acts contrary to their guidance, do they make void the influence of the mother and father? No, but while they are out of reach that guidance is quenched. Now think of what happens when mom and dad get ahold of them again, lol.

However, In any event, I would always have access to the very throne of God within the holy of holies because of the work of my great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

And what Hebrews teaches us is that...David did not have that access. He was a King and a Prophet, but, he could not enter into the parable that represented the presence of God in Israel. Only the High Priest could do that. We now have the reality of entrance to God's presence, not just when we die, but through the indwelling of God. We don't have to seek out a chamber somewhere.

He would/will accompany me into the very presence of the Father upon my acknowledgement of sin and repentance thereof to bring me back to the place of fellowship and blessing.

Correct. Now think again of your thoughts concerning quenching Him.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Correct, He is the paraklētos, and despite our quenching of the Holy Ghost, we are still in control of what He does. And what He does is for our benefit. Would we expect anything less from our Father? Shall He demand of men that they raise their children in the way they should go and not Himself provide the extreme model of good parenting?

You can sin, and you can quench the Spirit, but just wait until He gets ahold of you again, lol. But better the chastisement of our Father than to be left to our own.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Yes, but its a part of a greater truth, IMO the highest test is the presence of the fruit of the Spirit in one's life.

Namely agape-love 1 Corinthians 13

1 Corinthians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

And that would be keeping the Word of Christ.


God bless.

 

[HankD]

And that would be keeping the Word of Christ.


God bless.

So in a round-about way brother we agree on the marvelous and wonderful privilege that we under the New Covenant have :

The infilling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[HankD]

And that would be keeping the Word of Christ.


God bless.

Agreed.