Questions asked by a Catholic

[tragic_pizza]

The point of "exclusion" today is NOT that one group says the other group is "not christian" because they don't baptize by the Bible model - it is that they are messing around with God's word and substituting what the Bible says for what man's tradition "would prefer".

Almost exactly wrong. "Almost" because no one is perfect.

The point of exclusion is that my theology is better than your theology. That because mine is better, God likes me better. That because God likes me better, I can tell you you're going to hell, and that's A-OK with God. I don't have to love you, or serve you, or even treat you as an equal, because my theology is right and yours is not. God likes me, and hates you.

That's exclusion, if not in theory, in practice. Welcome to the Christian church, Protestant and Catholic, in America.

 

[BobRyan]

OK that is an interesting extreme.

Are you saying that in the examples you gave (Baptism, Calvinism, OSAS) etc the positions on this board are "God hates those who differ with me on this doctrine and will send them to hell"??

Or are you saying that debate is welcome as long as the people debating the points do not go to that extreme?

Lets take the case of worship of Mary and the magic powers of the priest in the communion service or the issue of praying to the dead etc -- for which Catholics killed millions of the saints... I don't think most people on this board are even willing to go that far with those extreme RC doctrines and claim that just because an RC member still clings to them - "God hates them".

Are you seeing that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
OK that is an interesting extreme.

Are you saying that in the examples you gave (Baptism, Calvinism, OSAS) etc the positions on this board are "God hates those who differ with me on this doctrine and will send them to hell"??

I'm saying that there are many on this board who feel exactly that, yes.

Or are you saying that debate is welcome as long as the people debating the points do not go to that extreme?

To an extent, I am saying that as well, yes.

Lets take the case of worship of Mary and the magic powers of the priest in the communion service or the issue of praying to the dead etc -- for which Catholics killed millions of the saints... I don't think most people on this board are even willing to go that far with those extreme RC doctrines and claim that just because an RC member still clings to them - "God hates them".

Remember that Protestants have killed their share of Catholics as well.

And I disagree with you. I think that plenty of Protestants, on this board and elsewhere, have written off Roman Catholicism as a free ticket to Perdition, and nothing more.

 

[BobRyan]

Well then I agree with you that the "you are going to hell for being a Catholic" view is wrong. In all my enthusiatic exposing of RC doctrinal error and in all my complaining that the RC poster is not paying attention to the Bible details - I don't also insist that simply being a member of the RCC makes them lost or that there are not saints in the RCC who are saved.

As for "Protestants killing their share of Catholics" it is not "a rough equivalent" The RCC is claimed in scripture to have been doing "her killing/tormenting/persecuting" for about 1260 years. They then ADD to that sin - the sin of REFUSING to actually NAME that persecution and ADMIT that it was wrong EVEN in the light of TODAY!!

If you have a period of time where Protestants owned all of Europe for over a thousand years and were "doing their share of killing Catholics" -- please point it out.

IF on the other hand you found 1 or two countries in Europe who for a period of TENS of years engaged in persecution and THEN have REFUSED to specifically NAME that persecution and say IT WAS WRONG -- then please point that out as well.

Please note that when the RCC was killing the saints - it is more the case that they are actually killing CATHOLICS (born and raised) who then decide that their own church is in error. Very different from going to a Protestant country where the people were born and raised Protestants and then "starting a war".

So I guess I should be complaining about the RCC promoting/sponsoring the killing of protesting-Catholics more than what WE would call Protestants today!

Of course the Catholic Church also also "exterminated" and persecuted Jews as well.

Otherwise it is just poor history to try to equivocate between the two.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[tragic_pizza]

Bob, killing is killing, and who has a higher body count is completely irrelevant. The discussion isn't who is more guilty, but that, since we are both guilty of crimes against one another, shouldn't we repent and seek agreement and common purpose in God's kingdom.

And you cannot, with a straight face, tell me that Protestants weren't as complicit in the murder of Jews in Germany as were the Catholics.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Bob, killing is killing, and who has a higher body count is completely irrelevant.

I see. So for you Britain in WWII and Hitler in WWII are all basically the same - cause they all killed at least one person.

Well that is one way to view life.

As it turns out the Bible DOES focus on the group slaughtering the saints for 1260 years.

Also - the point remains - The protestants who did the killing ARE able to say that it was wrong. The RCC has STILL not been able to say that - and there is "a reason" for that.

I am sure that does not matter either in your world view - but I just wanted to point that out.

TP

, shouldn't we repent and seek agreement and common purpose in God's kingdom.

Ok - so "the details again" - the RCC "has not" and "can not" repent for the misdeeds of the RCC in the dark ages for over a thousand years.

The Protestants CAN AND DO repent for the misdeeds of a few nations for a few TENS of years.

See??

And you cannot, with a straight face, tell me that Protestants weren't as complicit in the murder of Jews in Germany as were the Catholics.

Let me ask you to tell me with a straight face that you really believe the Catholics did not exist until the Protesting-Catholics in Germany came into being.

Or do you admit that the Catholics ran Germany for MANY CENTURIES prior to the protesting-Cathlics coming into power?

When do you think Lateran IV was held anyway?

This is the council that directs the "extermination" policy.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Bob, killing is killing, and who has a higher body count is completely irrelevant.

I see. So for you Britain in WWII and Hitler in WWII are all basically the same - cause they all killed at least one person.

Well that is one way to view life.

As it turns out the Bible DOES focus on the group slaughtering the saints for 1260 years.

Also - the point remains - The protestants who did the killing ARE able to say that it was wrong. The RCC has STILL not been able to say that - and there is "a reason" for that.

I am sure that does not matter either in your world view - but I just wanted to point that out.</font>[/QUOTE]You're arguing apples and oranges. If this were a geopolitical discussion, then of course Germany and GB aren't the same. It is, however, a discussion of theological and spritual truths, and to try and make it political is a straw-man tactic at best. Thus yes, in a spiritual and theological sense, Protestants and Catholics are equally to blame for killing one another, Jews, Muslims, witches, and anyone else who "stood in their way."

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />TP

, shouldn't we repent and seek agreement and common purpose in God's kingdom.

Ok - so "the details again" - the RCC "has not" and "can not" repent for the misdeeds of the RCC in the dark ages for over a thousand years.

The Protestants CAN AND DO repent for the misdeeds of a few nations for a few TENS of years.

See??</font>[/QUOTE]No. I've yet to hear any repentance in re this from anyone. So apprently Protestants are no more willing to look at themselves in a historical sense than are catholics.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
And you cannot, with a straight face, tell me that Protestants weren't as complicit in the murder of Jews in Germany as were the Catholics.

Let me ask you to tell me with a straight face that you really believe the Catholics did not exist until the Protesting-Catholics in Germany came into being.

Or do you admit that the Catholics ran Germany for MANY CENTURIES prior to the protesting-Cathlics coming into power?

When do you think Lateran IV was held anyway?

This is the council that directs the "extermination" policy.</font>[/QUOTE]What?

 

[violet]

As it turns out the Bible DOES focus on the group slaughtering the saints for 1260 years.

What are you talking about?

 

[BobRyan]

Well if you look at the last 2000 years of history it goes something like this ...

1. Pagan Rome - crucifies Christ
2. Pagan Rome - persecutes Christians until the 300's.
3. Christian Rome dominates all of Europe until the reformation is finally accepted. (The 1700's)
4. During that time the RCC persecutes the saints of God. Dominates from 538 Ad to 1798 (1260 years)

(Lateran IV policy of "extermination" for exhibit-A)

5. The reformation stops the persecution and the U.S is established as a model of freedom - a balance of church and state that does not persecute.

As it turns out - God foresaw all of that -- See Rev 12 and 13.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Fourth Lateran Council, for example, the ecumenical council that dogmatized transubstantiation, declared (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lat4-c3.html):

”Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that
whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the
supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.

Other councils, such as Vienna, issued anti-Semitic decrees that ordered the persecution of Jews. The persecution of other groups, such as the Waldensians, was also ordered by the RCC.
For example, Pope Innocent VIII issued a bull in 1487 ordering that people "rise up in arms against" and "tread under foot" the Waldensians.
Roman Catholic and former Jesuit Peter de Rosa writes in Vicars of Christ (Crown Publishers, 1988),

"Of eighty popes
in a line from the thirteenth century on not one of them disapproved of the theology and apparatus of the Inquisition. On the contrary, one after another added his own cruel touches to the workings of this deadly machine."

The Catholic historian von Dollinger writes in The Pope and the Council,

"From 1200 to 1500 the long series of Papal ordinances on the Inquisition, ever increasing in severity and cruelty, and their whole policy towards
heresy, runs on without a break. It is a rigidly consistent system of legislation; every Pope confirms and improves upon the devices of his predecessor....It was only the absolute dictation of the Popes, and the notion of their infallibility in all questions of Evangelical morality, that made the Christian world...[accept] the Inquisition, which contradicted the simplest principles of Christian justice and love to our neighbor, and would have been
rejected with universal horror in the ancient Church."

In Christ,

Bob

 

[D28guy]

It was posted, regarding the triune nature of God...

Originally posted by violet:
but who decided it and when? It's not explicit in the Scriptures.

And Julia said...

While the word 'Trinity' is not in the Bible, the doctrine of the Trinity is. It did not take a Council to determine that there is such thing as the Trinity. It's been in God's word all along.

Yes it has. The things that the Catholic Church arrogantly...but erroniously...takes credit for, and claims as their doing, is laughable.

Heres another one...

"Why, you wouldnt even have a 'table of contents' page in your bible if it werent for the Catholic Church!"

(eyes rolling)

I dont know how anyone can say some of these things with a clear conscience, to be honest.

Mike