Questions for Calvinists

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

So, if we are all dead before we have our heart changed so we have faith then I guess we all perfect and without sin?

Brother Bob,

I was referencing the mention of a "neutralized sin nature". My point was that we maintain our sin nature even after we are saved. However when we accept Christ we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit which means we also have a new nature. The conflict between these two natures is what Paul was explaining in Romans 7:14-25.

The tax collector in Luke 18:9-14 had a desire to overcome his sinfulness but his inability to overcome is what led to his humility. The lack of such humility on the part of the pharisee was proof of one nature, that of sin. The sinful nature that mankind inherited from Adam.

 

[Jarthur001]

Lets add one more passage to the mix, that free-willers seem to pass over.

Acts 13...

46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed

If all men were ordained TO ETERNAL LIFE, then all would believe, and all would be saved.

Yet what we see is, many, but not all were ordained to believe. No?

Ordained...greek word "tasso"

1) to put in order, to station
a) to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint
1) to assign (appoint) a thing to one
b) to appoint, ordain, order
1) to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority


Each time the word is used, it is action from a outside authority being placed on that person/persons from the authority, with no input from the subject.


The same word as used in Rom 13:1.

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

The ALL men are subject to the power of God..for the powers are ordained by God.

also....Act 22:10

And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

Paul was told to go to a city and there he would be TOLD what to do. Paul had no input. It was already planned for Paul. He just needed to follow.

again...Mat 28:16

Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

It was Jesus that told them to GO..for He had the power to do so.


last...Luk 7:8

For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].

Back to Acts 13...

46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed

Those that believed, were given the power to believe by the One that had the power to give. It follows...Those that were not ordained, did not believe for they did not have the power to do so.



In Christ...James

 

[webdog]

1) to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority

Enough said.

 

[Jarthur001]

1) to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority

Enough said.

And what authority does man have over God? I say none.

Acts 13 backs me up. The authority of salvation comes form God, not man. Unless there are more ways to be saved then though believeing in Christ.


The phrase is the same with that used by the Jews, Mlwe yyxl wnqtad, "who are ordained to eternal life"; and yyxl bytkd lk amle, "everyone that is written to eternal life"; in the book of life. and designs no other than predestination or election, which is God's act, Gods power, Gods authority, and is an eternal one, is sovereign, and unconditional.

 

[webdog]

And what authority does man have over God? I say none.

Over God? None. By God? Whatever He wants to give. The key word you left out is "responsibility"....the "j-word" calvinists don't like...justice.

I woldn't say Acts 13 backs you up. Tasso (verb) means simply to set, appoint in order. I believe this is dealing with the mindframe of those who were saved, as Scripture tells us that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. There is a definite order, allright, just not the one presented by calvinists.

 

[webdog]

Regarding the word "tasso" I believe A. Clarke hist the nail on the head when he states...

"Though the word in this place has been variously translated, yet, of all the meanings ever put on it, none agrees worse with its nature and known signification than that which represents it as intending those who were predestinated to eternal life: this is no meaning of the term, and should never be applied to it."

 

[Jarthur001]

Regarding the word "tasso" I believe A. Clarke hist the nail on the head when he states...

"Though the word in this place has been variously translated, yet, of all the meanings ever put on it, none agrees worse with its nature and known signification than that which represents it as intending those who were predestinated to eternal life: this is no meaning of the term, and should never be applied to it."

Not so.

It is the only one that fits..

The phrase is the same with that used by the Jews, Mlwe yyxl wnqtad, "who are ordained to eternal life"; and yyxl bytkd lk amle, "everyone that is written to eternal life"; in the book of life. and designs no other than predestination or election, which is God's act, Gods power, Gods authority, and is an eternal one, is sovereign, and unconditional.

 

[webdog]

Not so.

It is the only one that fits..just as Acts 15

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=843596&postcount=64

Not so. If anything, it fits what I posted previously about the mindframe of those saved. From the KJV. Notice the mindframe (result of set order) that I mentioned earlier...

Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

 

[Jarthur001]

Not so. If anything, it fits what I posted previously about the mindframe of those saved. From the KJV. Notice the mindframe (result of set order) that I mentioned earlier...

Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Paul and Barnabas did not set this...the Church set this. Paul and Barnabas only acted out the call. It was "by the church".


Again..

The phrase is the same with that used by the Jews, Mlwe yyxl wnqtad, "who are ordained to eternal life"; and yyxl bytkd lk amle, "everyone that is written to eternal life"; in the book of life. and designs no other than predestination or election, which is God's act, Gods power, Gods authority, and is an eternal one, is sovereign, and unconditional.

 

[webdog]

Paul and Barnabas did not set this...the Church set this. Paul and Barnabas only acted out the call. It was "by the church".

So you believe Paul and Barnabas had no say? They did "act out the call" in the sense they took all of the information given them and made a decision. They weren't forced. Faith comes by hearing (understanding) and understanding by the Word of God. Paul and Barnabas' decision came by "hearing" (understanding) the people.

 

[webdog]

You must have edited you post while typing mine.

The phrase is the same with that used by the Jews, Mlwe yyxl wnqtad, "who are ordained to eternal life"; and yyxl bytkd lk amle, "everyone that is written to eternal life"; in the book of life. and designs no other than predestination or election, which is God's act, Gods power, Gods authority, and is an eternal one, is sovereign, and unconditional.

I'm sorry, but I don't see "ordained to eternal life" in Acts 15

 

[Jarthur001]

So you believe Paul and Barnabas had no say? They did "act out the call" in the sense they took all of the information given them and made a decision. They weren't forced. Faith comes by hearing (understanding) and understanding by the Word of God. Paul and Barnabas' decision came by "hearing" (understanding) the people.

Paul and Barnabas had not the authority to set this on their own. This was given to them by the church, which is the same in salvation. This is why acts 13 reads just as it is wrote. No need to change the meaning. The authority of salvation comes from God, not man. If they are not ordained to eternal life, they cannot believe.

 

[Jarthur001]

You must have edited you post while typing mine.



I'm sorry, but I don't see "ordained to eternal life" in Acts 15

yes..i did. I have a few verse to look at.

Acts 15 is only one...but the key word is.."they determined"..in Acts 15. This has the same meaning..and shows the same idea. Somone other then the subject had the authority to set it in place.

 

[Jarthur001]

I have a few more verses I would like to share. But we need to address some that are on the table now.

John 8 has never been addressed by free-willers, that I have read.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=843169&postcount=60

I have posted this many times on other threads. I'm sure there is a view to be given, I just have not seen it. Maybe this time someone will address it.

Got to go. I'll be back tonight..


In Christ..James

 

[2BHizown]

Acts 13:48

 

[webdog]

Paul and Barnabas had not the authority to set this on their own if they wanted to. This was given to them by the church, which is the same in salvation. This is why acts 13 reads just as it is wrote. No need to change the meaning. The authority of salvation comes from God, not man. If they are not ordained to eternal life, they cannot believe.

Paul and Barnabes were not bound by the people, and yes, they could have set this on their own. They wanted the input of the people. Knowing this, the authority of salvation you tie into this makes salvation from God based on hearing (understanding) just as the Bible states.

 

[Jarthur001]

Paul and Barnabes were not bound by the people, and yes, they could have set this on their own. They wanted the input of the people. Knowing this, the authority of salvation you tie into this makes salvation from God based on hearing (understanding) just as the Bible states.

Maybe they could have, but this has never been done before, back in bible times, nor today. There is no place in the Bible where people ORDAIN themselves. This always came from another authority to do so.


As to A. Clarke. I would like to share with others what his goal is in this passage.

A Clarke on Acts 13:48 .

Now, we should be careful to examine what a word means, before we attempt to fix its meaning. Whatever tetagmenoi may mean, which is the word we translate ordained, it is neither protetagmenoi nor proorismenoi which the apostle uses, but simply tetagmenoi

He is wanting to "FIX" the Bible to say what he wants it to say. Maybe he should just leave the Bible alone. Now that's a idea.

How is tasso translated in different versions of the Bible? Following is Acts 13:48 from a variety of versions. The translation of tetagmenoi is capitalized:

The Bible I use.....And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed (King James Version; 1611/ 1769).

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as WERE ORDAINED to eternal life, believed (The Webster Bible; 1833).

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed (Revised Webster Bible; 1995).

And {those of} the nations, hearing it, rejoiced, and glorified the word of the Lord, and believed, as many as WERE ORDAINED to eternal life (The Darby Bible; 1890).

And the Gentiles hearing it were glad and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as WERE ORDAINED to life everlasting believed (Douay-Rheims; American edition; 1899).

And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed (American Standard Version; 1901).

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed (Revised Standard Version; 1952).

And hearing, the nations rejoiced and glorified the Word of the Lord. And as many as WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed (Modern King James Version; 1976-1998).

** One I trust highly...And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as WERE APPOINTED to life age-during (Young's Literal Translation; 1898).

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who WERE APPOINTED for eternal life believed (New International Version; 1984).

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honoured the word of the Lord; and all who WERE APPOINTED for eternal life believed (New International Version; British edition; 1984).

When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who WERE APPOINTED to eternal life became believers (New Living Translation; 1996).

As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as WERE APPOINTED to eternal life believed (World English Bible; 1999).

****Another Great one......Now the Gentiles hearing this were rejoicing and glorifying the Word of the Lord. And as many as HAD BEEN APPOINTED to life eternal believed (Kenneth Wuest. The New Testament: An Expanded Translation; 1961).

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as HAD BEEN APPOINTED to eternal life believed (New American Standard Bible; 1977).

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as HAD BEEN APPOINTED to eternal life believed (New American Standard Bible; 1995).

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as HAD BEEN APPOINTED to eternal life believed (New King James Version; 1982).

And hearing, the nations rejoiced and glorified the Word of the Lord. And as many as HAD BEEN APPOINTED to eternal life believed (Literal Translation of the Bible; 1976-1998).

When the Gentiles heard this, they began to rejoice and praise the word of the Lord, and all who HAD BEEN APPOINTED for eternal life believed (New English Translation; 1998).

The Gentiles were delighted when they heard this and glorified the word of the Lord. All who WERE DESTINED for eternal life came to believe (New American Bible; 1970-1991).

It made the gentiles very happy to hear this and they gave thanks to the Lord for his message; all who WERE DESTINED for eternal life became believers (New Jerusalem Bible; 1985).

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as HAD BEEN DESTINED for eternal life became believers (Revised Standard Version; 1989).

The Gentiles listened with delight and extolled the Lord's Message; and all who WERE PRE-DESTINED to the Life of the Ages believed (Weymouth's Translation; n.a.).

*** This one is bit off. They word it based on "WERE DESTINED" and not tasso..which would be a double translation. Nonetheless its right because it carries the context without changing the meaning...And the Gentiles, hearing this, were glad and gave glory to the word of God: and those MARKED OUT BY GOD for eternal life had faith (Bible in Basic English; 1949/ 1964).1

The 25 Bible versions cited above were produced over a period of almost 400 years, from the KJV of 1611 to versions still in progress (like the World English Bible). They were produced by Protestants, Catholics, conservatives, and liberals. So every possible type of English translation is represented.

In these 25 versions, the word tasso is translated "ordained" eight times, "appointed" eleven times, "destined" three times, "pre-destined" once, and "marked out" once.

It seems like Clarke in trying to "fix" the Bible is way off.

However, there is one version that will agree with clarke.. "disposed" is found in the The New World Translation, the "Bible" of Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[Jarthur001]

Not to force anyone, just a small reminder.....

I'm still waiting on John 8

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...9&postcount=60



anyone?

 

[reformedbeliever]

You might want to do a word search on appointed.... as it is mentioned throughout the Old and New Testaments. God's appointed times are His appointments of people are not new. He is sovereign.

 

[J.D.]

Not to force anyone, just a small reminder.....

I'm still waiting on John 8

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...9&postcount=60



anyone?

James, I'll give you the answer I got the last time I used those verses. Pelagius says "you're taking those scripture out of context." But don't ask him to PROVIDE a context. He'll just divert you to another text somewhere and say, "well, what about this..." Or, he'll say "I don't know what it means, but I do know what it DOESN'T mean".

It's like Erasmus' response to Luther - it can be summarized as "So?".