Questions for Catholics

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi gb93433,

Thew word for "Corresponding to that" is the word antitupon. Which means counterpart or antitype. An antitype is "something that is foreshadowed by a type or symbol, as a New Testament event prefigured in the Old Testament."

I agree with every word that you have stated. It is precisely by the reason that the Great Deluge is a foretype of baptism that we are able to see the saving effects of baptism. This fact only bolsters the truth, which Peter expresses. This truth is that, "eight persons were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you."

Infants can appeal to God for a clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ in the same way that all other Christians make this appeal: through baptism.

Maybe you didn't read my earlier post so I will quote it here:

If one were to take look at the context of baptism in the NT it males sense to believe that someone who was baptized was also saved. During the writing of the NT the emperor was declared as Lord and some thought of themselves as divine. When someone was baptized they now declared Christ as their Lord and therefore placing their allegiance in Christ instead of the emperor. Because of naming Christ as Lord it meant that they in effect were renouncing the emperor as their lord and one could lose their life should the emperor decide to have that new believer executed. The believers during the time of the NT did not separate baptism and salvation as we do. Wouldn’t you say if someone was willing to follow Christ and name him as their Lord and risking their life because of this that they would be saved? </font>[/QUOTE]So salvation is not by faith, nor is it by Grace, but by the work of public profession and then can't be shown to be certain except in regions in which you will certainly lose your life by making such profession, therefore, salvation is not only through profession or baptism, but now through martyrdom

I am beginning to understand now, but I don't see 'by Grace through faith'. Maybe I am just a slow learner.

Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]Isn't folowing Christ by faith? At least that's what Heb. 11:6 says.

If you are not walking by faith then how can you be following Christ?

Wouldn't you say that someone who is willing to take the kind of stand I talked about is trusting in Christ by faith for their salvation. Otherwise it is for nohing other than a public spectacle. </font>[/QUOTE]I do not disagree with what you are saying in principle. But I disagree in equating this 'act' or any other of meriting[sp?] eternal salvation.

In speaking of the type of Noah and the ark, it is not baptism that is important, it is being in the Ark, it is the Ark that typifies Christ. Now, to say there is such a thing as a 'desire' to be baptized but being legitimately hindered doesn't line up with scripture either.

Christ never made specification such as a desire for anything. He plainly and clearly stated:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If baptism is a means for me, then it becomes a means for the Son of God to become what he already was the Lamb of God.

Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]Iwas not dealing with the entire subjeet of salvation but just the one verse in 1 Peter 3

Just as you pointed out in Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." The early church never separated baptism and salvation like we do. Baptism is not a means of salvation but a public proof that you are confessing Christ as your Lord and therby renouncing the emperor as your lord. For this one could possibly be executed in those days.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi "The Harvest",

If you died right this very minute, where would you go?

Well, my body would go wherever it is taken thereafter (and my body is just as much "me" as my soul; I am a composite of soul and body, not an "entrapped soul"), and my soul would be purified from its impurities through the process of Purgatory (it is improper to call Purgatory a "place" because souls do not inhere in space; they have no division and therefore do not take up space - and thus are not subject to time when they are separated from the body at death). After it is purified, my soul will enjoy the direct Vision of God, face to face, as I will spend the rest of eternity.

Why?

Because I am in a "state of grace". That means that I am saved by the merits of Jesus Christ's atonement on Calvary. I can only be saved by grace and through grace. Because Christ's life (this life is attributed to the Person of the Holy Spirit essentially) is within me and is the principle of my very being, I have the supernatural indwelling of the Three Persons of the Blessed Trinity. When I pass from grace into glory, this presence will be manifest existentially, through now it is hidden through sign and symbol - while simultaneously producing fruits such as peace and joy.

 

[Frogman]

I understand the history you referenced. But the statement you made is don't you think this act would save someone?

My answer. no. This would be an act in order to endure any one of us would have to rely on the complete Grace of God. This is accomplished through faith.

This would be an act which among men would warrant merit, but how does the death of a sinner saved by Grace compare with the death of the only Begotten Son of God? I cannot make such comparison.


Isaiah 63:1  ¶Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2  Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3  I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.


Bro. Dallas

 

[The Harvest]

so what you are saying is that you are a soul and a body, is that correct? Because the Bible says we are a three-part being.

1 Thess 5:23 and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If you have been baptised, why do you still have to go to purgatory? 1 John 1:7 says the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin.

How long will you be in purgatory? Can you give me a list of sins that a person would have to commit to be sent to Hell as opposed to purgatory? Where in the Bible do you get the doctrine of purgatory? Remember now, let's not get into the traditions of men. Only scripture, since you're a Bible-believer.

I can only be saved by grace and through grace.

Is this a typo? Did you mean grace through faith? (no sarcasm, just don't want to "jump" on you if you just typed the wrong word)

 

[Carson Weber]

so what you are saying is that you are a soul and a body, is that correct?

Yes, that is correct.

the Bible says we are a three-part being.

Yes, it does.

The Bible also says that the earth has four corners (Rev 20:8).

If you have been baptised, why do you still have to go to purgatory? 1 John 1:7 says the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin.

Our sanctification is precisely the application of the blood of Christ to our souls. It is the work of Christ. As Catholics, we believe that Christ's blood efficatiously cleanses us - not as a sort of legal fiction, but really and truly.

How long will you be in purgatory?

We do not know the exact nature of purgatory. It may be instantaneous (because the soul is immaterial and therefore not subject to time, which is relative between physical matter) yet existentially entail time.

Can you give me a list of sins that a person would have to commit to be sent to Hell as opposed to purgatory?

Is Saint Paul good enough?

"Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21)

Where in the Bible do you get the doctrine of purgatory?

"If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:15).

Did you mean grace through faith?

No, I didn't. I meant grace. It isn't that God gives me 99% grace and I put in my 1%, which is faith. That would be the heresy of Semi-Pelagianism. All is grace.

 

[The Harvest]

I'm still confused on purgatory. Why do you go there?

Gal 5:19-21 is a list of some pretty bad sins alright, but if you look a little farther down you'll see in verse 24 that those who are saved (those that are Christ's) have crucified the flesh (see also Gal 2:20) and even if they do commit those sins are still saved.

1 Cor 3:15 is not a reference to purgatory my friend. That is talking about the Judgment Seat of Christ where a Christian will be rewarded for the good he has done.

You see you lay the foundation of Christ through salvation...
1 Cor 3:10 I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Then you start building on top of this foundation with works. They can be good or bad.
1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
This is a judgment to see if the Christian will be rewarded for the work he did after he was saved. The WORKS are tried, not the person (soul).

Did you mean grace through faith?

No, I didn't. I meant grace. It isn't that God gives me 99% grace and I put in my 1%, which is faith. That would be the heresy of Semi-Pelagianism. All is grace.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith The Bible says faith not grace. We receive the grace of God on faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[GraceSaves]

How could that be what I was talking about? You quoted yourself in reference to Carson. I gave you a long response to all of your questions; you have not since touched it.

 

[The Harvest]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
How could that be what I was talking about? You quoted yourself in reference to Carson. I gave you a long response to all of your questions; you have not since touched it.

hey, look, i'm sorry. i just wasn't sure which post you were talking about. the one i quoted to you was the last one i posted before you said this.

i just looked back through all 4 pages and can't find any post of yours which i didn't answer at least in part. if you'll post the questions (or responses whichever it is) i'll answer them.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi The Harvest,

I'm still confused on purgatory. Why do you go there?

To be purified by the love of God before we enter into his presence. We can either live out our Purgatory here on Earth or through Purgatory hereafter. It's our choice, but we have to be purified of the dross on our souls sooner or later before we enter the presence of God for nothing unclean shall enter heaven. (Revelation 21:27)

even if they do commit those sins are still saved.

WOH, WOOOH, WOAH.. slow down there Harvest buddy...... Saint Paul NOWHERE says what you are saying! He says that those who live by the Spirit (i.e., do not commit sins of the flesh) will be saved right after explicitly saying that those who do such things (sins of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Talk about nullifying the Word of God! Wow!

1 Cor 3:15 is not a reference to purgatory my friend.

Of course it is.

That is talking about the Judgment Seat of Christ where a Christian will be rewarded for the good he has done.

.. and punished for the dross he has accumulated, i.e. being purged. Where do you think the term "Purge-atory" comes from?

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Amen brother! Preach that Purgatory!

The WORKS are tried, not the person (soul).

Oh really? That's an incredibly interesting interpretation, which - mind you - nullifies the Word of God with a precision I haven't seen in a while.

The passage says that the Christian himself suffers loss when the work is burned, thus showing that the work and the person are intrinsically bound up with one another. Brother, a work doesn't exist on its own; it is intrinsically tied up with the subject who "works". In your scenario, the soul doesn't suffer loss. Paul says the Christian suffers loss. Again, you - a supposed Bible Christian - do not agree with the Word of God.

I would encourage you, the Harvest, to become a Bible-believing Christian and to shed your unBiblical views.

Bible says faith not grace.

No, the Bible says grace is all.

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6)

This grace is given to us by faith.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8)

And this faith is formed by charity.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6)

Carson: "Paul, what avails?"
Paul: "faith working through love"
Carson: "faith what? did you say working?"
Paul: "faith working through love"
Carson: "I'm sorry, Paul, but what kind of works?"
Paul: "faith working through love"

 

[The Harvest]

Carson,

What does this mean. Especially the part in bold.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

 

[gb93433]

The only way to please God is stated in Hebrews 11:6, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

 

[Frogman]

Carson,
Explain this to me:

3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


Especially the part that says when he had by himself purged our sins,
Bro. Dallas

 

[The Harvest]

So if 1 Cor 3 is talking about purgatory and a person who suffers loss at the Judgment Seat of Christ has to burn in purgatory. That means that the Spirit of God burns in purgatory with the Christian. Hold it...not a tradition of man...but the next verse after your purgatory "proof".

1 Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

So the Spirit of God is inside the Christian and burns in purgatory too. And don't try to say that the Spirit leaves you for a little bit while you burn, because it does not say that. If you say that, you'll be adding to the word of God and that again would be a tradition of men.

 

[Frogman]

Jinks!!! Harvest.

God Bless ya brother.

Who doesn't beleieve God is and that he is a rewarder? I mean if anyone is coming to God, Christ said they must come through him and they must be drawn by the Father.

I don't understand.

 

[The Harvest]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Carson,
Explain this to me:

3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


Especially the part that says when he had by himself purged our sins,
Bro. Dallas

I believe that saying goes, great minds think alike.

 

[Frogman]

Amen.

 

[The Harvest]

whew, you guys are keeping me up way past my bedtime. i'll talk to you some more tomorrow.

how are you guys out east doing this? you're two hours ahead of me? g'night!

 

[The Harvest]

one last post and i'm done for the night.

carson, you gotta explain the texas flag by your name. you're in ohio...you just there for school or something?

ttyl

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Harvest,

Let me pull out my Nestle Arland 26th Edition Greek New Testament here..

What does this mean?

when he had by himself katarismon our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

The Greek katarismon (feminine, plural, genitive - it comes from "katarismos") means "a cleansing", thus a more literal translation would be "had by himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high".

Since the author to the letter of Hebrews presents Jesus Christ as the High Priest of the New Covenant, this language expresses the author's intention to show that Jesus Christ made the offering, which purifies us from sin as the High Priest in the Old Covenant (Diatheke) made this offering on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur).

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Harvest,

carson, you gotta explain the texas flag by your name. you're in ohio...you just there for school or something?

I'm a born and bred Texan - just north of San Antonio (named after St. Anthony of Padua - you know, the Franciscan in Padova, Italy who was such a charismatic preacher that to this day, his tongue has been preserved by God incorrupt in the basilica in Padova - I've seen it personally).

I'm in Ohio presently as a third year graduate student studying the Bible.