Questions for Catholics

[gb93433]

In Ephesians 2:8 it by the means of God’s grace through faith that we are saved. In this verse there is God’s part and there is our part. Salvation is secured in Jesus Christ but it is by faith in Jesus Christ that we please God. It is by God’s grace that we have Christ. But it is by faith that we please God. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" is ours.

Eph. 2:8,9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Heb 11:6, “And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.”

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Harvest,

carson, you gotta explain the texas flag by your name. you're in ohio...you just there for school or something?

I'm a born and bred Texan - just north of San Antonio (named after St. Anthony of Padua - you know, the Franciscan in Padova, Italy who was such a charismatic preacher that to this day, his tongue has been preserved by God incorrupt in the basilica in Padova - I've seen it personally).

I'm in Ohio presently as a third year graduate student studying the Bible.

Carson, you know that is really the tongue of a Baptist don't ya

I was wondering the same thing...about the Texas flag I mean...I just thought you were Republican

Bro. Dallas

I was born in Hamilton OH, but raised a hillbilly.

 

[Frogman]

It is by God's Grace that we are able to have faith. This is also proven by Eph. 2.

Ephesians 2:1  ¶And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Harvest,

Let me pull out my Nestle Arland 26th Edition Greek New Testament here..

What does this mean?

when he had by himself katarismon our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

The Greek katarismon (feminine, plural, genitive - it comes from "katarismos") means "a cleansing", thus a more literal translation would be "had by himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high".

Since the author to the letter of Hebrews presents Jesus Christ as the High Priest of the New Covenant, this language expresses the author's intention to show that Jesus Christ made the offering, which purifies us from sin as the High Priest in the Old Covenant (Diatheke) made this offering on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur).

What you mean is that Christ's presenting himself through the eternal spirit once and for all, his now being our high priest, etc. mean nothing.

Where did the word purgatory come from?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Dallas,

What you mean is that Christ's presenting himself through the eternal spirit once and for all, his now being our high priest, etc. mean nothing.

No, it means everything. It means that Jesus Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant as High Priest. He has made atonement for sin, thus delivering us from the curse of the Old Covenant and forging the New Covenant in his blood. Christ is both priest and victim. His priestly sacrifice is himself, and it is by the merit of his Passion and Death that we are given entrance into the New Covenant Family of God, saved from sin and for heaven.

The Christian is given the Holy Spirit who is the agent that sanctifies the Christian's soul through suffering, making the Christian intrinsically holy. When God declares us to be just, his word is creative (Isaiah 55:11) and we are actually made just - beginning at baptism and continuing throughout the Christian life - as we are molded into the likeness of the Son of God through grace.

Where did the word purgatory come from?

From the Middle English purgatorie, from the Old French purgatoire, from the Medieval Latin purgatorium, from the neuter purgatorius, which means "cleansing".

James Akin (a convert to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism) explains Purgatory quite well:

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/how2purg.htm

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Harvest,

Let me pull out my Nestle Arland 26th Edition Greek New Testament here..

What does this mean?

when he had by himself katarismon our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

The Greek katarismon (feminine, plural, genitive - it comes from "katarismos") means "a cleansing", thus a more literal translation would be "had by himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high".

Since the author to the letter of Hebrews presents Jesus Christ as the High Priest of the New Covenant, this language expresses the author's intention to show that Jesus Christ made the offering, which purifies us from sin as the High Priest in the Old Covenant (Diatheke) made this offering on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur).

Even your own translation or usage of the Greek doesn't make sense. You said the word means "MADE purification for our sins," and then went on to contradict yourself by saying that "this lanaguage expresses the author's intention to show that Jesus Christ made the offering. You admit it is in past tense--"made," and then put into a future tense using the word "intends" Your not making sense.
DHK

 

[Frogman]

Young's concordance identifies it as diakatharizo

Strong's: #1245--diakatharizo to cleans perfectly.

Vine's: gives katharismos, which I believe agrees with your reference, but Vine says it is kin to kathakizo [strong's 2511] "to cleanse, make clean. This is used in Heb. 9.14 by the KJV--"purge" (RV, "cleanse") and also 9.22.

Has Christ discontinued acting as our high priest? Is he not in the order of Melchisedec? What about Heb. 10.9-18. [and we don't have to stop there, just so you know that I am not ignoring context of vs. 26-29].

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Thanks for the definition but I am not an evangelical Protestant. I am Landmark Missionary Baptist.

We do need to continue this discussion, I am listening and I think you are, whether we ever change each other or not is not important to me. So why bother discussing it right? Wrong. The whole work of Christ is sufficient to carry us through, prior to baptism until we are raised in His likeness. (Ps. 17.15)

We need to determine why Paul said the priests standing daily offering meats and such according to the law are to no avail. (I know this is not the exact wording, but I gave the verses in the last post).

We will each perhaps leave this discussion still believing what we believe now, but the word of God is not bound and  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

We must learn or discuss what is meant by saying I will write my law upon their heart. If you will discuss these things with me I am willing to discuss them with you. No strings attached.

(I used to date a Catholic girl) Every Sat. when I went to see her they were going to mass, and they faithfully invited me...and then trusted me to remain alone in their home until they returned. If only they knew I was a MB

May God Bless you

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

The idea that purgatory is a late invention is similarly false. In fact, it has been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ

When was the time before Christ? Trying to tie anything possible onto Christ still is an attempt to show a deficiency in the work of Christ. This is only in his second point. This is the 'true' religion since the time before Christ.

Does the Bible say that Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ?

I believe so.

I need to go to bed now. If you will we shall continue later. I have enjoyed the discourse.

bro. Dallas

 

[AngelforChrist]

I have a question for Catholics - if you knew you were going to be taken to a small island for the remainder of your life and there would be no churches there , preists etc... , and you had a choice of these two : The bible , or the catechism - which would you choose ?

2) Do you think it would be possible for you to remain saved by Gods grace with no one to confess to or no preist to absolve you ?

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by AngelforChrist:
I have a question for Catholics - if you knew you were going to be taken to a small island for the remainder of your life and there would be no churches there , preists etc... , and you had a choice of these two : The bible , or the catechism - which would you choose ?

The Bible, because it was canonized by the Catholic Church (and no other church was around to do this in the latter 3rd/early 4th centuries) and declared it divinely inspired "God breathed" scripture.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is not scripture, therefore it is not divinely inspired!

Thus, I would choose the bible!

2) Do you think it would be possible for you to remain saved by Gods grace with no one to confess to or no preist to absolve you ?

Of course! We have what is called making an act of contrition to God Himself! You do this exclusively, since you do not have confessions to your minister as we do with our priests, but we have that also if a priest is not available.

I do this all the time! (As when I commit a sin but do not have access to a priest immediately.)

I am always saying "Forgive me, Lord" if I commit a minor infraction or a venial sin (a sin that is not "deadly" per 1 John 5:16-17).

But I do go to confession as a follow-up, as there is nothing like a good one-on-one with a priest who speaks with a human voice, the encouragement to avoid the sins you commit.

See how easy that was?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Not riches, but God.
Not honors, but God.
Not distinction, but God.
Not dignities, but God.
Not advancement, but God.
God always and in everything.

- St. Vincent Pallotti -

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Angel,

You asked, "The bible , or the catechism - which would you choose?"

This isn't even a contest.. the Bible, of course! Only the Bible is divinely inspired, God-breathed, or theopneustos. The Catechism is driven by the Bible, and it is a teaching tool to "catechize" in the Christian faith. As a catechized Christian, the Catechism is purely referential in my life as a Christian. The Bible is the soul and active force of my life as a Christian. No Bible, no breakfast. No Bible, no bed.

2)Do you think it would be possible for you to remain saved by Gods grace with no one to confess to or no priest to absolve you?

Absolutely.

 

[The Harvest]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Harvest,
I'm a born and bred Texan - just north of San Antonio

I'm in Ohio presently as a third year graduate student studying the Bible.

i lived in texas for about six months going through some training. i was in san angelo. no offence man, but i got nuthin for texas. too hot and too desert-like. i would much rather live around green grass, trees and perhaps even some mountains like out in eastern PA or parts of KY and VA.

 

[The Harvest]

Carson,

Just a friendly reminder for you. We got off on a bunch of Greek lessons and didn't get to this one.

Originally posted by The Harvest:
So if 1 Cor 3 is talking about purgatory and a person who suffers loss at the Judgment Seat of Christ has to burn in purgatory. That means that the Spirit of God burns in purgatory with the Christian. Hold it...not a tradition of man...but the next verse after your purgatory "proof".

1 Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

So the Spirit of God is inside the Christian and burns in purgatory too. And don't try to say that the Spirit leaves you for a little bit while you burn, because it does not say that. If you say that, you'll be adding to the word of God and that again would be a tradition of men.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi The Harvest,

i got nuthin for texas. too hot and too desert-like

Texas has forests, mountains, deserts, green plains, coastal lands, and hill country. It depends on "where you are" in Texas that decides your geography and climate. You have to look "outside the box" and see the whole without bias due to only what you've seen before to make a judgement concerning the Lone Star State. It's analogous to the study of Catholicism.

So if 1 Cor 3 is talking about purgatory and a person who suffers loss at the Judgment Seat of Christ has to burn in purgatory.

Are you trying to say, in effect, that 1 Corinthians 3 doesn't say the Christian will suffer loss when his works are burned up? Consistently, I witness supposed "Bible Christians" making comments and interpretations that have for their telos the denial of what is plainly stated in Scripture. In the end, you find the "Bible Christian" saying "Oh, but he doesn't really mean what he says" or "He's really saying something completely different than what he is saying" such as in 1 Peter 3:18-21 - "eight persons were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you".

That means that the Spirit of God burns in purgatory with the Christian.

No, you've got it backwards. It is the purifying action of the Holy Spirit that purifies the Christian of the dross on his soul. This is happening right now in this life, dontchaknow?

[ October 07, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Dallas,

I am not an evangelical Protestant.

Did I say you were?

The whole work of Christ is sufficient to carry us through, prior to baptism until we are raised in His likeness. (Ps. 17.15)

I agree with this statement except for the "prior to baptism" portion because it is in baptism that we die and rise with Christ. Without the oath that baptism is, we aren't in a covenant, since entrance into a covenant requires an oath (Latin: sacramentum).

We need to determine why Paul said the priests standing daily offering meats and such according to the law are to no avail.

Because sin against an infinite God necessitates an infinite reparation for reconciliation. This is why the blood of Jesus Christ, our victim and High Priest, is necessary to deliver us from the Old Covenant and into the New Covenant.

We must learn or discuss what is meant by saying I will write my law upon their heart.

It means that we are given a new life principle called The New Law, which is a person: The Holy Spirit who instructs us within. St. Thomas Aquinas has an excellent exposition of the relation between the Old and the New Law in his famous Treatise on Law in his Summa Theologiae in the Prima Secundae Partis. You may access it here:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2.htm

If only they knew I was a MB

And if you only knew what really went on at Mass. - a participation in the Heavenly Liturgy "in spirit and truth" as described through apocalyptic imagery in John the Seer's Apocalypsis.

My current roommate comes from a MB family, which has been planted churches in Latin America for at least two generations. There isn't a Catholic on either side of his family (mother or father) as far down the line as he can tell, and he was received into the Catholic Church in 1994 after a long and ardous journey, which followed his dating relationship with a Catholic .

If you ever read Crossing the Tiber by Stephen K. Ray (the author of http://www.catholic-convert.com ), he's mentioned on p.87, as he came into the Church with the Ray Family in Ann Arbor, MI.

 

[The Harvest]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi The Harvest,

So if 1 Cor 3 is talking about purgatory and a person who suffers loss at the Judgment Seat of Christ has to burn in purgatory.

Are you trying to say, in effect, that 1 Corinthians 3 doesn't say the Christian will suffer loss when his works are burned up?

OK now we're getting somewhere. Here's what this means.

It says our works will be made manifest and the fire shall try them for what sort they are. somehow, known only to God, He's going to make our works manifest (like 1 Tim 3:16 God was manifest in the flesh). I can't explain it, but that's what it says.
Then he's gonna burn our works. If they were good works (gold, silver, precious stone) they'll not burn up and that's going to be our reward for Christian service. If they are bad, or useless works (wood, hay, stubble) they will burn up and THAT is the loss you suffer. Because you stand there and see all of that part of your life wasted. You could have been rewarded for that stuff, but instead you suffered loss because they were works not done for the cause of Christ.

That means that the Spirit of God burns in purgatory with the Christian.

No, you've got it backwards. It is the purifying action of the Holy Spirit that purifies the Christian of the dross on his soul. This is happening right now in this life, dontchaknow?

ok, let's establish this point first.

A born again Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

OK so as a christian you have the Holy Spirit inside of you.

Now, when you die IF the Judgment Seat of Christ (JSoC) IS purgatory and you have to burn for the bad works...that means the Holy Spirit, which is in you, burns too.

 

[The Harvest]

i got nuthin for texas. too hot and too desert-like

Texas has forests, mountains, deserts, green plains, coastal lands, and hill country. It depends on "where you are" in Texas that decides your geography and climate. You have to look "outside the box" and see the whole without bias due to only what you've seen before to make a judgement concerning the Lone Star State. It's analogous to the study of Catholicism.

i know. i've seen every part of texas except the houston area. i've everywhere from east of DFW all the way across to the northwestern border as well as down through middle texas to el paso. i hear the best part is the houston area.

i actually kind of like san antonio though. i'm just one of those people that hates heat. that's my biggest gripe. it's just as hot here in southern idaho (believe it or not) in july as it is in texas.

when you're in the air force you don't get much say in where you live.

how you like steubenville?

 

[Carson Weber]

how you like steubenville?

That's the wrong question. The question should be "How do you cope with living in Steubenville?" (*grin*)

Steubenville is an old, run-down steel town with an oasis upon one of its hills. The Franciscan University here - http://www.franciscan.edu - is what we like to term "The city set on the hill" due to its contrast with the surrounding area. It's like a little country of its own.. a beautiful campus and students from all 50 states and 40 countries in stark contrast to the city itself.

 

[The Harvest]

haha!

i've been there. that's where i got married. i didn't think it was a bad place. course, i was only there for a couple of hours and didn't see much.