Questions for KJVOs

[Trotter]

I presented some of the verses that appear to be at odds with each other in the KJV for the purpose of reminding the KJVOs that the principles applied to these verses to explain the apparent contradictions MUST BE APPLIED to the differing mss used to make English Bibles, lest they use a double standard.

Now, Cranston, I thought that you would have learned by now that it's not a "double standard" as far as the KJVO crowd goes. It's "cuttin' straight and true" when applied to anything but the KJV, and a "heretical nonsense" when pointed at their own hooey.

Personally, I think ole Charlie is but one alias of many being used by some exetremely irrate KJVO advocate who likes to stir it to smell the stink. I mean, surely there are not that many people who actually believe the KJVO fairy tale. Please tell me it ain't so...

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[HankD]

Please tell me it ain't so...

Do a search with the engine of your choice (Google, Dogpile) using "KJVO".

HankD

 

[tinytim]

Originally posted by robycop3:
Tiny Tim-I believe the word you're seeking is "eisegesis".

Thank you, That's the word. As I said before, I have never had seminary, Greek, or Hebrew, but do consider myself scholarly. I am taking every opportunity to better my self as a Pastor, and do hope to get a degree someday.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by charlie parker:
Phillip wrote "You may feel assured your KJV IS the Word of God, but I can also assure you that my ESV is also the Word of God."

So when they conflict, where is your final authority? Where there is no Final authority there is no harmony, there is anarchy.
Charlie

I know of no conflicts that effect doctine, whatsoever. Now if you are asking me if a verse is in the KJV and not in the ESV; how do you know some well-meaning, helpful scribe did not add a little bit when he copied the transcript. The originals transcripts are the final authority, but we have lost those, we do have the Word of God, but as I said, there are no doctrinal changes. What doctrinal changes most KJVO's like to point to are actually mostly related to differences in the archaic English language used in the KJV compared to an MV using modern English.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by charlie parker:
gb wrote"You also need to realize that God has never used ignorance. I trust that you do read the Bible. In doing so you read some very well educated people. For anyone to have written in the OT or most any other time they would have had to be a part of the elite. It is most likely that two to five percent of the population could even read. It was usually much closer to two percent. Paul was very well educated. Just think about where Moses grew up.
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Well gb, There is nothing like a bible to settle a bible question, Paul had to unlearn his early learning to serve God, and Gods choice of servants has always been thus "Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus." You should really check out the writers in the OT before making such a statement, What did Moses learn in pagan Egypt that was spiritual? Shepherds, herdsmen, woodsmen, slaves, are these the "elete" that you refer to? Try this one," Corinthians 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:"
Have a great day
Charlie

Read my previous posting where I talked about the literacy rate. Moses would have been considered part of the elite. He was raised by educated men.
You might need to understand how much the early men in the OT had to learn just to lead and teach the people. We cannot go astry if we know our Bible. Your friends you mentioned did not know their Bible. Why do you think people get into cults? The Mormons are filling their pews mostly from the RCC and SBC weekly.

You are separating education and spirituality. They do not need to be separated. A person can be very well educated and very godly at the same time. Look at 2 Timothy 2:15. If that isn't education what is it? If you want a real education study God.

Read what you wrote earlier, '"Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus."' They had been with the master--Jesus. Sometime when you get a chance just look at how ignorant Jesus was in debating various people in the gospels. He was not at all ignorant nor unstudied. He knew the scripture very well. He knew how to debate well also. He wasn't just a bold ignorant person. He was a bold knowledgeable person who was God.

I'll give you a real case. A few years ago I was teaching the youth Sunday School and in there was a young lady who was briliant. She was in 8th grade and studying the same material that a student would in a college prep program in their sophomore year. One Sunday I told the class that there were extrabiblical evidences for our faith that support scripture. She said, "There is?" From that point on we discussed apoogetics and the extrabiblical evidences for our faith. It wasn't too long before she started sharing her faith. Before that all she had was ignorance. A few years ago a similar thing happened. I started going through the book of Genesis and covering creation and a number of its extrabiblical evidences. Some of those youth began to take those things to school and stand up for their faith among other students. Some of them began to speak on it in speech and write papeers on it. It is great to see how people get turned on for Jesus when they begin to understand the historical background and context of scripture. That is not ignorance about the things of God but God's power in action. When we begin to teach people and disciple them we empower them to share their faith without confidence and not a feeble ignorance. God uses us to give them a confidence they never had because now they have answers they didn't have. Isn't that what having spiritual gifts is all about-- for the equipping of the saints for the work of service.

The fact is that the majority of Christians do not know the historical background of scripture and usually zero or few extrabiblical evidences for their faith.

I want to challenge you with just a little task to start with.

Sometime explain why the differences in Matthew 8:28; Mark 5:2; and Luke 8:26,27. Notice the two in Mt. and one in Mark and Luke. The only way I know the understand what was actually happening is to know the historical background of those books. They appear contradictroy but are not. So what would you tell a non-believer. I had a similar discussion like this about two months ago with a man who has been looking and had found ignorance from those he asked. After our initial discussion we have had a few since. He considers what I say and then comes back with more questions. He has waremd up to me some. Recently I was invited to his home where several of his friends and family were having a party.

You maty have seen many who are proud of their education and don't really know God. But a humble man who knows God considers it a privilege to have the teachers he has had.

One good example might be; Sevral years ago I spent some time and studied under a man who has some of his work in the Smithsonian. Before that time I made a lot of mistakes and didn't know how to solve them until I met the master. In a very short amount of time he showed me the right way of doing things. He has been accused of being arrogant and slow. But I found him to be quite the opposite. I found him to be confident and quite skilled in his work. Having studied under him has prevented me from making many mistakes I once did. It also helps me to be more satisfied in my work because I have the confidence that it is right. Why reinvent the wheel?

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by charlie parker:
Dr Bob Griffin wrote>>And while I'm at it, the belief that the English clears up/corrects the Greek is also heresy. It demands inspiration of someone other than the writers of Scripture. This is called the "Mormon Syndrome", and is typical of cults like them that demand THEIR writings amplify, clear up, correct or add to the inspired Word of God<<<<

It is my contention that the AV is the word of God, in English, I have a copy in my possession, No one on this list or their teacher has in their possession a copy of THE gk text of holy Scripture, So, I say that my copy of holy Srripture in English can correct a copy of gk scripture that no one has or has ever seen. The Problem with critics of Gods word is that it is sealed to them"Isaiah 29:11  And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:"

Charlie

No one has ever seen? Oh, yeah, I forgot, some of you guys don't believe in the Septuagint either, right?

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by charlie parker:
It is my contention that the AV is the word of God, in English

We know that. What we are all waiting for is one ounce of proof. </font>[/QUOTE]Yuk Yuk hehe, I sure wish I had a professor like you when I was in college. Maybe I wouldn't have slept through so many classes!

 

[charlie parker]

Scott"Charlie, Just curious- Do you attend HVBC in Villa Rica?"

No Sir, but I know Brother Eddie Wyatt and a large number of his congregation. I am with Brother Jack Husted at Bible Baptist Church in Hollis Crossing, Al.about a 65 mi drive--:-(

Charlie

 

[charlie parker]

ScottJ "Charlie, Just curious- Do you attend HVBC in Villa Rica?"

No Sir, But I know brother Eddie Wyatt and a good number of his congregation, Im with brother Jack Husted at Bible Baptist in Hollis Crossing AL. bout a 65 mi drive--:-(

Charlie

 

[charlie parker]

Sorry for the double post, didnt think the first on went out
CP

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by charlie parker:
Sorry for the double post, didnt think the first on went out
CP

Hi Charlie,
I'll answer your question to how I reconcile differences between my ESV and the KJV using YOUR posts as a great example. (Right above this) Post One and Post Two have differences! Which one is the real story?

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
The final authority comes in the original manuscripts, Charlie. The Greek text DOES correct modern versions, as well as the KJV - the Greek gets primacy over ANY translation.

If so, we have no authority. Where are the originals and how close are our copies to the originals? How do you know that you have the accurate Greek text? BTW, did you know that English, at least in any recognizable form for modern speakers, was not concurrent with the Kione Greek? Can you envision the problems in translation? We really don't know how the words were pronounced. No one has really ever heard Kione Greek spoken.

 

[TC]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
These are still, IMHO, reverential and appropriate pronouns for addressing Deity. In our irreverent society, it is perhaps good to keep special pronouns for God. When praying aloud, I often use "Thee" and "Thou" in sincere reverence without pretentiousness or false piety. We are all too familiar in our attitude toward God. After all, He did make specific prohibition (Ex. 20:7) against using His name lightly and flippantly. The use of a special pronoun may just remind us that we are speaking to God. Whereas it may be a small thing, it is a good thing.

"thee" and "thou" were not used for refering to God specifically. In the KJV, Satan and men were also addressed by these pronouns. Showing proper reverance to God comes from the heart and not the words we speak.

 

[rsr]

"Thee" and "thou," in fact, were the opposite of reverential but instead were the familiar pronouns used with intimate family and friends. German, for example, still retains this distinction with "Sie" and "du."

 

[charlie parker]

Phillip wrote&gt;&gt;"No one has ever seen? Oh, yeah, I forgot, some of you guys don't believe in the Septuagint either, right?"&lt;&lt;&lt;
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Th ole LXX again, s-e-p-t-u-a-g-i-n-t, seventy two elders, L=50, X=10, X=10, uupppsss, someone lost 2 elders, sure I believe the counterfeit exists, It was forged 200 yrs after the cannon closed, do I believe Christ or any of the NT writers ever saw it, not a chance, before you start giving proof of it being quoted, dont bother, Im 65 yrs old and have been studying this stuff for 40 yrs,I see the results of mv's getting into bible believing congregations, via a graduate of a "godly institution" that "stands firmly upon the original somethingorothers without apology---------" All statements and questions that ive read here are like reveiwing my "archives" "There's nothing new under the sun--" wondering how Dr. Bob let the attack on a fellow christians charactor get by without a rebuke??? just for grins tho, check the niv reading on who killed Goliath, talk about conflict.
Not planning on leaving the list just thinking that some of my statements might have seemed uncharitible and have no desire to offend any of the "weaker" brethren that may have read them.

Charlie

 

[charlie parker]

Phillip wrote&gt;&gt;"Hi Charlie,
I'll answer your question to how I reconcile differences between my ESV and the KJV using YOUR posts as a great example. (Right above this) Post One and Post Two have differences! Which one is the real story?&lt;&lt;&lt;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had a screen freeze whin I sent the first post,and didnt think it was sent, so, I retyped it and due to a scribal error in my original, the second post was corrupted----, or was it??

Jeremiah 36:32  Then took Jeremiah another roll, and gave it to Baruch the scribe, the son of Neriah; who wrote therein from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the book which Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire: and there were added besides unto them many like words."

Hmmm, wonder if the added "like words" were inspired---??
Charlie

 

[charlie parker]

rsr wrote&gt;&gt;&gt;"Thee" and "thou," in fact, were the opposite of reverential but instead were the familiar pronouns used with intimate family and friends. German, for example, still retains this distinction with "Sie" and "du." &lt;&lt;&lt;

Try this one, The language used in the word of God is not "Elizebethan" or "Victorian" english, It is "bible language"

Charlie

 

[charlie parker]

I have "scaned" the "scoops" on Dr. Peter S Ruckman PhD put out by White, Jones, Farstadt, Hymers, Hudson, Price, Hinnenger, Rice, Horton, Waite,and dozens of others who got "sand" kicked in their faces, poor guys, when they play in the traffic, they get hit, then cry about "rude and contemptible language"
"2 Corinthians 11:6  But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things."
"2 Corinthians 10:10  For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible."

Charlie

 

[Orvie]

Originally posted by charlie parker:
Try this one, The language used in the word of God is not "Elizebethan" or "Victorian" english, It is "bible language"

Charlie

sorry Charlie, there's no such thing as "Bible language"..it's true there are a few special words, i.e. "propitiation", etc...but "Bible language"? Even the N.T. was written in the common Greek of the day; Koine, instead of the more formal Attic Greek. Sound familar? Hey, what a minute! that sounds like a case for the MV's, instead of the classical English of the KJV

 

[Orvie]

Originally posted by charlie parker:
I have "scaned" the "scoops" on Dr. Peter S Ruckman PhD put out by White, Jones, Farstadt, Hymers, Hudson, Price, Hinnenger, Rice, Horton, Waite,and dozens of others who got "sand" kicked in their faces, poor guys, when they play in the traffic, they get hit, then cry about "rude and contemptible language"
"2 Corinthians 11:6  But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things."
"2 Corinthians 10:10  For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible."

Charlie

Chuckie, do you honestly believe that "rude in speech" is permission for the KJVO's to be obnoxious? (like Orvie )