Questions in the face of disaster

[Rippon]

How could you possibly know all the workings of God with his creation. God could use randomness just as easily as He gave man free will, which He did.

I know what is scripturally consistent with His character. The randomness of God and/or His creation is an anti-biblical perspective that you share with Mr.Q.

 

[Luke2427]

Just so we are clear, I "NEVER" question the goodness of God, what I do question is yours and my own "interpretation" of HOW God expresses his goodness, grace, love and sovereignty toward us and in His creation.

So let me get this straight.

You do not believe the Bible when it says that no disaster comes to a city unless the Lord has done it, right?

And you do not believe the Bible when in it God said, "I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal... I create well being and calamity...", right?

 

[Luke2427]

You contradict yourself. Nothing in His creation is random. That false philosophy of yours needs to be abandoned. The Lord causes chaos -- as Scripture attests --but the Lord is not chaotic. He does things with planning and purpose.

Scripture will follow.

Amos 3:6b :When disaster comes to a city,has not the Lord caused it?

Lamentations 3:38 :Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?

Isa. 45:7 : I form the light and create disaster;I,the Lord do all these things.

2 Kings 22:16 : This is what the Lord says;I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[quantumfaith]

You contradict yourself. Nothing in His creation is random. That false philosophy of yours needs to be abandoned. The Lord causes chaos -- as Scripture attests --but the Lord is not chaotic. He does things with planning and purpose.

Scripture will follow.

Amos 3:6b :When disaster comes to a city,has not the Lord caused it?

Lamentations 3:38 :Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?

Isa. 45:7 : I form the light and create disaster;I,the Lord do all these things.

2 Kings 22:16 : This is what the Lord says;I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people.

I tell you what Rippon, you keep your philosophy, and I will keep mine. You and Luke keep your totally deterministic perspective of God and I will keep mine, non deterministic position.

 

[Jarthur001]

I tell you what Rippon, you keep your philosophy, and I will keep mine. You and Luke keep your totally deterministic perspective of God and I will keep mine, non deterministic position.

job 10:16
And were my head lifted up, you would hunt me like a lion and again work wonders against me.

job 6:4
For the arrows of the Almighty are in me; my spirit drinks their poison; the terrors of God are arrayed against me.

job 7:12
Am I the sea, or a sea monster, that you set a guard over me?

job 19:8
He has walled up my way, so that I cannot pass, and he has set darkness upon my paths.

job 19:10
He breaks me down on every side, and I am gone, and my hope has he pulled up like a tree.

job 16: 12-13
All was well with me, but he shattered me;
he seized me by the neck and crushed me.
He has made me his target;
his archers surround me.
Without pity, he pierces my kidneys
and spills my gall on the ground.

 

[Jarthur001]

"Shall not his excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you? Your remembrances are like unto ashes, your bodies to bodies of clay. Hold your peace, let me alone, that I may speak, and let come on me what will. Wherefore do I take my flesh in my teeth, and put my life in mine hand? Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him"


The key to suffering is that we trust God.

 

[Jarthur001]

here is something else I wrote that came from thinking about the earthquake...

http://www.examiner.com/calvinism-in-national/japan-s-earthquake-and-philosphy

Japan's earthquake and philosophy



Just after the so called Enlightenment in Western philosophy, there developed a new extreme optimism in man's ability. No longer was God needed, many said. Man, through intellectual scientific studies, would find the answer to life's problems. Whether or not one believes in God, all must concede that after viewing the events surrounding Friday's March 11th, 2011 earthquake, that man is still not in control.


Before the modernism era, Western culture had been governed by Christian values and principles. Some call this Pre-Modern. A time when God was believed to be in control of all things and the answer to life is to find God's will for your life. If you go back to the founding fathers of our nation, you will see that they believed that one created a just society based on a just God. But Modernism rejected the existence of an all-powerful Creator. Man was seen as the highest being and through education and scientific discoveries, man would build a world society that would find answers to life on his own.


John Stackhouse puts it this way:

“

What is characteristic of modernity . . . is the guiding hope that, given enough time and energy, human beings could experience the world, think hard, and come up with reliable answers – correct answers – regarding the nature of things. Here was a powerful confidence that all persons of goodwill, sufficient gifts (whether in intelligence, aesthetic sensibility, and so on), and appropriate skill can examine the pertinent data and come to the same true conclusions” (Humble Apologetics, 24).

Oliver Wendell Holmes said that “you create a just society based on universal human reason.”


Michael Kruger writes,

"After the rise of the Enlightenment there came a new guardian of truth to replace the church: science. No longer would human beings stand for the irrational musings and archaic dogmatism of religion – science (with reason as the foundation) was the new god, and all intellectual theories had to bow and pay homage in order to be seriously considered. Science viewed Christians as being naively committed to ancient myths, unable to see past their bias and to take an objective and neutral look at the world.

One could sum up those ideas in a song written by John Lennon. Lennon sang of a hopeful dream of a Communist Utopia in his song called “Imagine.” However, years after Lennon's death, Communism was shown to be one of the worst systems developed by man. Modernism has ultimately disappointed man. People have become disenchanted with reason and science on the philosophical level, as neither are able to deliver on their promises to solve all human problems and reshape society into Utopia.

Japan's earthquake is just the latest reminder of man's inability to map it's own destiny.


One of the top developed countries in the world was no match for a 8.9 earthquake and some 20 foot wall of water. The world watched as world class cars and well built houses were treated as cheap plastic toys in a child created wave during bath time.


Since the fall of Communism which Moderists had hoped would usher in this dream society, many have moved away from modern thinking into postmodernism. Postmodernism is the reaction of the disillusioned. The optimistic efforts of reason, science and technology have given us more toys and play time, but have left us with emptiness and no meaning. It has given us lazy, fat kids that love video games and TV shows, but nows states must lower test standards for them to achieve a high school diploma.


This week when we saw in Japan man's greatest technological advances in one of the strongest societies in the world crushed as if it were a paper craft from Vacation Bible school, optimism turns to pessimism rather quickly. Man is indeed small.


Modernism said man will find truth through reason. To the postmodernist, truth is not capable of being found, but is created by each man on their own. Absolute truth is a fable to postmodernist. The years during which Modernism said God was not needed, created a vacuum in man who longs for worship. In postmodernism, man has turned once again to worship with a common goal. But the god for most postmodernists is “mother earth.” Within environmental worship, the postmodernist hopes to finally bring about the longed for dream of John Lennon. This of course has hints of Paganism.


It seems that mankind has gone full circle in philosophy. Paganism is what dominated the world when Christianity came along and it now seeks a return to it's glory. Paganism works more toward establishing tribal relationships instead of the single large society of Modernists. Each tribe has their own gods that they worship, with the common god of the globe. Tribes set their own values. What works for them, is their business. This we see in the postmodernism focus on tolerance.


This may sound good until one considers all Pagan tribal ritutals. The Druids of Britain engaged extensively in human sacrifice, as did many tribes of African, the Mayas, the Aztec and Hawaiian tribes. Cannibalism did not stop in Papua New Guinea until the 1970s. This came only after years of Christians working in New Guinea.

Continue reading on Examiner.com: Japan's earthquake and philosophy - National Calvinism | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/calvinism-in-national/japan-s-earthquake-and-philosphy#ixzz1GZqzoRSp
​

More at the link..

 

[Rippon]

I tell you what Rippon, you keep your philosophy, and I will keep mine. You and Luke keep your totally deterministic perspective of God and I will keep mine, non deterministic position.

I presented Scripture when I countered your view that the Lord's ways and means are sometimes random. What did you offer --your own personal philosophy -- no Scripture. I'll keep to the Bible texts thank you very much.

 

[Van]

Reply to Jarthur 001

"1st, if you had taken the time to read the link, you would find that that was not my premise and I disagree with it.

2nd you do not deal with love and pain and goodness.

If I have the power to save a child from getting hit by a car, but I choose not to do this what would you call this?"

First, the false premise I addressed was posted and I addressed it.

Second, I exhaustively dealt with the Premise which included pain, suffering and death.

Third, if God has the power to eliminate pain, suffering and death, but does not do it, would I say God is evil and not good? No, as my post explained, these are part of God's very good creation and serve God's purpose, which I believe is to lead us to God as a refuge.

 

[J.D.]

One thing you can count on at Baptist Board is seeing a WIDE range of views on a subject. And we've certainly seen that in this thread.

I don't think even Pelagius would support the kind of Open Theology and outright denial of plain scripture represented in this thread.

I'm reminded of what Tony Campolo said when Katrina hit NO - something to the effect that God wished He could stop the hurricane but could do nothing about it. Makes me wonder just who it is that these people worship?

This isn't even a C v A issue. Wesley would faint if one of his students claimed that there are "random" events outside the control of God. (Although his theology unfortunateley does logically imply that, he would never claim it explicitly)

 

[Van]

Reply to Rippon

You contradict yourself. Nothing in His creation is random. That false philosophy of yours needs to be abandoned. The Lord causes chaos -- as Scripture attests --but the Lord is not chaotic. He does things with planning and purpose.

Scripture will follow.

Amos 3:6b :When disaster comes to a city,has not the Lord caused it?

Lamentations 3:38 :Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?

Isa. 45:7 : I form the light and create disaster;I,the Lord do all these things.

2 Kings 22:16 : This is what the Lord says;I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people.

I disagree with the assertion that these verses indicate God does not allow circumstances to occur, rather than always deterministically causing everything. To the degree that God created autonomous ability within His creation, then He can allow circumstances to occur without Him controlling the specific outcome.

Words have meanings. The Bible speaks of people making choices, and to say they really only have one choice, that is to redefine the meaning of choice to mean non-choice.

Does the Bible say God deterministically controls everything or does it say things happen by accident or by chance?

Luke 10:31 says things happen by chance

1 Samuel 6:9 indicates God allows things to happen by chance or according to His determinate control.

Ecc. 9:11 again indicates things happen by chance.

All this to say the behavior that divides us is taking scripture too far. To say because God does it this way in this verse, He always does it.

 

[Robert Snow]

One thing you can count on at Baptist Board is seeing a WIDE range of views on a subject. And we've certainly seen that in this thread.

I don't think even Pelagius would support the kind of Open Theology and outright denial of plain scripture represented in this thread.

I'm reminded of what Tony Campolo said when Katrina hit NO - something to the effect that God wished He could stop the hurricane but could do nothing about it. Makes me wonder just who it is that these people worship?

This isn't even a C v A issue. Wesley would faint if one of his students claimed that there are "random" events outside the control of God. (Although his theology unfortunateley does logically imply that, he would never claim it explicitly)

I am more convinced that Calvinism is a sham than you are that our non-Calvinistic view is anti-scriptural. In fact, I was talking about this issue this past Sunday at church with the Sunday school class I attend. I stated that this Calvinistic doctrine is one of the worst thing the Baptist church has to deal with today. That this view is not only not supported by the Word of God, but that it is dangerous to the cause of Christ.

 

[quantumfaith]

I am more convinced that Calvinism is a sham than you are that our non-Calvinistic view is anti-scriptural. In fact, I was talking about this issue this past Sunday at church with the Sunday school class I attend. I stated that this Calvinistic doctrine is one of the worst thing the Baptist church has to deal with today. That this view is not only not supported by the Word of God, but that it is dangerous to the cause of Christ.

Robert, I say "to each his own" theologically speaking. However, my strong disagreement with reformed theology is how it is sometimes "imported" into a baptist church, which has not been historically reformed in its theology. It should always come before the church in a clear, concise and unambiguous manner to be debated prior to the call of pastor or minister. At that point, if that is the direction that the church wishes to go, so be it. No pastor or staff member holding reformed positions should come into a church "unannounced" and then seek to change the church to their liking.

 

[Robert Snow]

Robert, I say "to each his own" theologically speaking. However, my strong disagreement with reformed theology is how it is sometimes "imported" into a baptist church, which has not been historically reformed in its theology. It should always come before the church in a clear, concise and unambiguous manner to be debated prior to the call of pastor or minister. At that point, if that is the direction that the church wishes to go, so be it. No pastor or staff member holding reformed positions should come into a church "unannounced" and then seek to change the church to their liking.

You are correct. Our pastor is new and has been at our church about six months. The only question I had concerning his appointment was that he was not a Calvinist. I am glad to say that he is not. If he had been, and the church had called him anyway, I would have left and found another church to attend.

 

[Jerome]

Any John Piper followers know if he has handed down a decretal on this disaster?

Baptist Pastor Divines the Weather

 

[Luke2427]

I tell you what Rippon, you keep your philosophy, and I will keep mine. You and Luke keep your totally deterministic perspective of God and I will keep mine, non deterministic position.

Or in other words we'll hold to the Bible and you'll hold to your own ideas you made up. 10-4.

 

[quantumfaith]

Or in other words we'll hold to the Bible and you'll hold to your own ideas you made up. 10-4.

Say whatever you want to Luke. Whatever you want to. Like or not, agree with it or not, you are doing nothing except holding to your view of the Bible and its message. Oh and BTW, nothing I said to YOU or Rippon was in anyway disrespectful, simply a position that YOU have taken, one of complete determiminism.

 

[Iconoclast]

One thing you can count on at Baptist Board is seeing a WIDE range of views on a subject. And we've certainly seen that in this thread.

I don't think even Pelagius would support the kind of Open Theology and outright denial of plain scripture represented in this thread.

I'm reminded of what Tony Campolo said when Katrina hit NO - something to the effect that God wished He could stop the hurricane but could do nothing about it. Makes me wonder just who it is that these people worship?

This isn't even a C v A issue. Wesley would faint if one of his students claimed that there are "random" events outside the control of God. (Although his theology unfortunateley does logically imply that, he would never claim it explicitly)

Sadly your post is true.It is almost shocking sometime to see it in print.Maybe in time some will continue to re-examine their posts, and see where they have departed from scripture.

 

[Jarthur001]

I disagree with the assertion that these verses indicate God does not allow circumstances to occur, rather than always deterministically causing everything. To the degree that God created autonomous ability within His creation, then He can allow circumstances to occur without Him controlling the specific outcome.

Words have meanings. The Bible speaks of people making choices, and to say they really only have one choice, that is to redefine the meaning of choice to mean non-choice.

Does the Bible say God deterministically controls everything or does it say things happen by accident or by chance?

Luke 10:31 says things happen by chance

1 Samuel 6:9 indicates God allows things to happen by chance or according to His determinate control.

Ecc. 9:11 again indicates things happen by chance.

All this to say the behavior that divides us is taking scripture too far. To say because God does it this way in this verse, He always does it.

Oh brothers!!! :BangHead:


Van Van Van…..please don't google a word to prove your point. Understand the context.

Luke 10:31 says things happen by chance

Luck 10 is a parable. Christ is placing the people into the story. It could read….and in this story there happened to be… Do you understand?

1 Samuel 6:9 indicates God allows things to happen by chance or according to His determinate control.

No it does not!!! READ THE CONTEXT.

1st this was mans reasoning. The Philistines have the ark and they ask their priest how to get the ark back to where it belonged. What you posted was what the PHILISTINE PRIEST SAID[SIZE=+1] [/SIZE]
2nd...notice what happened.

7“Now then, get a new cart ready, with two cows that have calved and have never been yoked. Hitch the cows to the cart, but take their calves away and pen them up. 8Take the ark of the Lord and put it on the cart, and in a chest beside it put the gold objects you are sending back to him as a guilt offering. Send it on its way, 9but keep watching it. If it goes up to its own territory, toward Beth Shemesh, then the Lord has brought this great disaster on us. But if it does not, then we will know that it was not his hand that struck us and that it happened to us by chance.”

10So they did this. They took two such cows and hitched them to the cart and penned up their calves. 11They placed the ark of the Lord on the cart and along with it the chest containing the gold rats and the models of the tumors. 12Then the cows went straight up toward Beth Shemesh, keeping on the road and lowing all the way; they did not turn to the right or to the left. The rulers of the Philistines followed them as far as the border of Beth Shemesh.
​

Ecc. 9:11 again indicates things happen by chance.

Van...Do you understand what this book is about? Key words here…UNDER THE SUN.

UNDER THE SUN....LIFE WITHOUT GOD.

Now read the text again. This is saying, if there is no GOD…then life is but time and chance. But…there is a God.

 

[Robert Snow]

Say whatever you want to Luke. Whatever you want to. Like or not, agree with it or not, you are doing nothing except holding to your view of the Bible and its message. Oh and BTW, nothing I said to YOU or Rippon was in anyway disrespectful, simply a position that YOU have taken, one of complete determiminism.

Luke and company believe God created robots who He maneuvers like a video game. We believe God created human beings and gave them a choice to love Him or not. Being able to manipulate bible verses to prove non-biblical principles is not what God intended nor is it a true representation of the
Gospel.