Questions on the Ceasing of the Gifts

[Steven Yeadon]

TCassidy makes a point here I agree with theologically, that the revelatory gifts have ceased, but I doubt the veracity of his biblical example.

Yes, he did. He said "when the complete revelation comes, the partial revelation (in the form of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge) will end."

The bible is now complete. The Gifts have, therefore, ceased.

Paul says in verse 13, "now abides faith, hope, and love, these three." He did NOT say "now abides faith, hope, love, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, these six." Tongues were no longer being given (had ceased) when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians.

The thing is I want to agree with him, but in 1 Corinthians 14, just after these verses we are told to eagerly desire spiritual gifts including prophecy. This seems confusing, since how can we be told to pursue gifts that have ceased? Am I interpreting wrongly? Or is TCassidy in need of a better verse to prove the revelatory gifts have ended?

Also, another question is can a person believe that some people, such as Middle Eastern Muslims, get dreams of Jesus calling them to the Christian faith, while also believing that the revelatory gifts have ceased at the same time?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Oops, this is embarrassing, mods I'm sorry but can you put this thread into the Baptist Theology and Bible Study Forum?

 

[TCassidy]

The thing is I want to agree with him, but in 1 Corinthians 14, just after these verses we are told to eagerly desire spiritual gifts including prophecy.

The word "gifts" is not in the Greek. "Spiritual" is an adjective so it obviously refers in context to gifts. "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but chiefly strive after prophecy."

Paul is saying that, even though new converts are no longer being given such gifts, those who already had the gifts should be sought out as your leaders and preachers to inform you of God's word pending the completion of the canon. And of those, the gift of preaching should be the main gift sought after.

Am I interpreting wrongly?

Uh huh.

Or is TCassidy in need of a better verse to prove the revelatory gifts have ended?

God does not have to repeat Himself, if we are listening with our spirit as well as our ears.

 

[Iconoclast]

This seems confusing, since how can we be told to pursue gifts that have ceased?

You are not in the Corinthian church are you? Paul told them what to do at that time.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It’s Christmas... why no gifts? Just joking

 

[Martin Marprelate]

TCassidy makes a point here I agree with theologically, that the revelatory gifts have ceased, but I doubt the veracity of his biblical example.

I think it is valid to use 1 Cor. 13 to argue for cessationism, but it is not the only text by which you can do so.
have a read of this: Cessationism. Have the Sign Gifts Ceased?

Also, another question is can a person believe that some people, such as Middle Eastern Muslims, get dreams of Jesus calling them to the Christian faith, while also believing that the revelatory gifts have ceased at the same time?

If God wants to save someone, He is free to do whatever he wishes to effect that salvation. What is not valid is for someone to say, "Steven, I dreamed last night that you ought to do so and so."

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

TCassidy makes a point here I agree with theologically, that the revelatory gifts have ceased, but I doubt the veracity of his biblical example.



The thing is I want to agree with him, but in 1 Corinthians 14, just after these verses we are told to eagerly desire spiritual gifts including prophecy. This seems confusing, since how can we be told to pursue gifts that have ceased? Am I interpreting wrongly? Or is TCassidy in need of a better verse to prove the revelatory gifts have ended?

Also, another question is can a person believe that some people, such as Middle Eastern Muslims, get dreams of Jesus calling them to the Christian faith, while also believing that the revelatory gifts have ceased at the same time?

In the strictest sense Calvinists believe thee gifts have ceased. But there are people such as Matt Chandler and John Piper who believe the gifts have not ceased.

I tend towards cessation.

As to dreams in Muslims, dreams are a very big deal. There is a book you should read to get a better understanding.
Seeking Allah, finding Jesus. It's written by Nabeel Qureshi who passed away last September at the age of 34.

If you follow the ministry of David Wood (Acts 17 Apologetics), you'll learn much about Islam.

 

[TCassidy]

I believe all spiritual gifts (charismata) have ceased.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I think it is valid to use 1 Cor. 13 to argue for cessationism, but it is not the only text by which you can do so.
have a read of this: Cessationism. Have the Sign Gifts Ceased?

Yeah, I read it back in the day when you linked it, and thank you for the link again. I thought it was a great article and have it my favorites now.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

If God wants to save someone, He is free to do whatever he wishes to effect that salvation. What is not valid is for someone to say, "Steven, I dreamed last night that you ought to do so and so."

That makes sense, God is free to give us things that save us or, in the case of Corrie and Betsy Ten Boom or Perpetua and her friends, just give us hope in a concentration camp or Roman Dungeon.

 

[Revmitchell]

TCassidy makes a point here I agree with theologically, that the revelatory gifts have ceased, but I doubt the veracity of his biblical example.



The thing is I want to agree with him, but in 1 Corinthians 14, just after these verses we are told to eagerly desire spiritual gifts including prophecy. This seems confusing, since how can we be told to pursue gifts that have ceased? Am I interpreting wrongly? Or is TCassidy in need of a better verse to prove the revelatory gifts have ended?

Also, another question is can a person believe that some people, such as Middle Eastern Muslims, get dreams of Jesus calling them to the Christian faith, while also believing that the revelatory gifts have ceased at the same time?

There is no where in scripture where the gifts are declared as currently ceased. However, that is not evidence they are active today either.

 

[agedman]

First, one must not consider the “charismatic” groups reflect the reality of God’s gifts. They don’t, and such should not be sought.

Second, the God’s gifts are still active to this day. Perhaps not in some miraculous endowment, however, there isn’t a teacher of any worth that does not recognize the gifted student.

In every aspect of the “work” environment, there are those who are gifted. Most are not. As it relates to the assembly, every member has specifically appointed gifts that are to be used. No persons gift is puffed up as more important then any other.

Third, All good and all perfect gifts come from God, so for some gift to “cease” may not conform to what God considers purposeful.

Forth, discern that gift God has given and use it, as you use it, the use will bring other related attributes and responsibilities.

Fifth, do not be surprised at the pushback of the evil in trying to discourage and get one to cast aside or disparage the gift.

Sixth, the gifts cease on earth in the presence of Christ, which is the millennial reign. We then see Him face to face and know as we are known, and are no longer hindered by speculation and questions about Scriptures, but see all things clearly and without doubt.

 

[Revmitchell]

Fifth, do not be surprised at the pushback of the evil in trying to discourage and get one to cast aside or disparage the gift.

that is not necessary. Reasonable people can disagree on this without being evil.

 

[agedman]

that is not necessary. Reasonable people can disagree on this without being evil.

I was posting about that gift God gives specific to service to all believers according to His purpose.

I have encountered a great number of pew sitting spectators who either by discouragement or disparage do not use their God given gift. The gift that He gives to each member that the assembly be complete and lacking in nothing.

Such discouragement and disparagement is evil.

 

[JonC]

I believe these signs cease when the things they point to have arrived. I believe this was Paul's point (a general principle pointing to the temporary nature of "sign gifts" in contrast to the everlasting nature of love).

 

[Yeshua1]

In the strictest sense Calvinists believe thee gifts have ceased. But there are people such as Matt Chandler and John Piper who believe the gifts have not ceased.

I tend towards cessation.

As to dreams in Muslims, dreams are a very big deal. There is a book you should read to get a better understanding.
Seeking Allah, finding Jesus. It's written by Nabeel Qureshi who passed away last September at the age of 34.

If you follow the ministry of David Wood (Acts 17 Apologetics), you'll learn much about Islam.

I would see the sign gifts as having ceased, as the revelation of God in the scriptures to us is now full and completed, but God still can heal as he chooses to, and doers seem to among say Muslims use visions and dreams at times!

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe these signs cease when the things they point to have arrived. I believe this was Paul's point (a general principle pointing to the temporary nature of "sign gifts" in contrast to the everlasting nature of love).

Signs gifts pointed to Jesus as the true Messiah, and now no longer are needed for that! There might be sme exceptions in say Muslim lands, where missionaries do report that God uses dreams and visions at times, but the norm is now thru the scriptures alone!

 

[JonC]

Signs gifts pointed to Jesus as the true Messiah, and now no longer are needed for that! There might be sme exceptions in say Muslim lands, where missionaries do report that God uses dreams and visions at times, but the norm is now thru the scriptures alone!

But so did Scripture (OT Scripture).