Questions to the full Preterist

[JackRUS]

Jo$h.
Only preterists use that "apocalyptic speech" excuse when they don't like what they read in Scripture.

And as far as I know Babylon (Iraq) still exists. And why do you always take a literal time frame when it suits your theology such as Rev. 1, but in Isaiah and in Joel it's "apocalyptic speech"?

You wrote:

Preterists interpret time statements "literally" and apocalyptic statements "figuratively" dispensationalists do the opposite. So "shortly" does not fit in your paradigm so you do not interpret it in your time frame.

How is Revelation not apocalyptic?

And yes, I take Rev. 21:9 as a literal thing that will happen as John best described in his own words.

And chapter 8 of Genesis is interpreted by most scholars are a promise that God will not flood the world again. Why do you suppose that God put the rainbow in the sky for Noah to see?

"And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any
more be a flood to destroy the earth.
And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a
covenant between me and the earth.
And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh." Gen. 9:11-15

Albert Barnes said this about Gen. 8:21:

"But the main reference of the passage is doubtless to the curse of a deluge such as what was now past. This will not be renewed. “Because the imagination of his heart is evil from his youth.” This is the reason for the past judgment, the curse upon the soil: not for the present promise of a respite for the future. Accordingly, it is to be taken in close connection with the cursing of the soil, of which it assigns the judicial cause. It is explanatory of the preceding phrase, on account of man. The reason for the promise of escape from the fear of a deluge for the future is the sacrifice of Noah, the priest and representative of the race, with which the Lord is well pleased. The closing sentence of this verse is a reiteration in a more explicit form of the same promise. “Neither will I again smite all living as I have done.” There will be no repetition of the deluge that had just overswept the land and destroyed the inhabitants."

So your pipe dream of an eternal continuation of sinful man on the Earth is not Biblical.

 

[Jo$h]

Only preterists use that "apocalyptic speech" excuse when they don't like what they read in Scripture.

And as far as I know Babylon (Iraq) still exists. And why do you always take a literal time frame when it suits your theology such as Rev. 1, but in Isaiah and in Joel it's "apocalyptic speech"?

You really need to do more homework on jewish apocalyptic language especially the pseudographia and how that style of language is used in communicating judgement. It what it means to a 1st century jew not 21th century Christians. I suggest you do alot more research.

Babylon in the OT still exists? You have got to be kidding me. Did God not destroy it like He said would? Iraq has nothing to do with OT Babylon, where do you get that in the Bible anyway?

Isiah and Joel's time statements occur exactly when there are supposed to occur. Again more research is needed on OT Day of Lord and how it is used. As I explained before there are 26 of them, not all of them refer to the final one.

Here are some verses by using "Analogy of Faith" by using it you can come to the conclusion that the earth is going nowhere, this is of course is a biblical interpretation in which futurists completely abandon when trying to support that the earth will be destroyed by fire.

Ps 78:69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever."
Ps 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."
Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever

Ephesians 3:21 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end."
Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

And chapter 8 of Genesis is interpreted by most scholars are a promise that God will not flood the world again. Why do you suppose that God put the rainbow in the sky for Noah to see? So your pipe dream of an eternal continuation of sinful man on the Earth is not Biblical.

The point of this post is to ask real preterists questions. If you have any questions ask them. If you don't want the answer or just want to argue start a new one. If you want to know why preterists think the way they do, do the research, don't just go to the anti-preterists sites all over the web. I was a dispensationalist once, in fact I read the gospel message and came to Christ by reading the Left Behind series. I am not a preterist simply to be different and I am well aware what the majority of modern christendom thinks of it. I did the research unbiasly without Thomas Ice or Tim Lahye's commentary on the subject or any other dispensationalist. I don't expect to convert anyone on this board to preterism, I didn't come to it overnight, I do not expect anyone else to. I simply wanted to better ascertain what Scripture was communicating to a 1st century Jew, not a 21 century Christian.

The response I made on Gen 8 has nothing to do with a pipe dream. It has to do with many statements made throughout the Bible that the earth will last forever. The final judgment did come be by fire. God is an all consuming fire. Fire is a depiction of judgment. The point that can't be overlooked is that God did not destroy the planet and the universe the first time.. only most of the living things in it, save those in the ark. The point is that the issue was never the physical destruction of the planet, but the people therein. So even a promise not to destroy every living thing in a certain way, still is only addressing the people, and not the planet itself.. Which makes the mode of destruction of little significance, as that being judged is the people, and not the planet.

[ December 11, 2005, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Jo$h ]

 

[JackRUS]

Then you either deny Rev. 20:8-9 and 22:1, or you spiritualize then away somehow.

And as I see the theology of many turn to preterism I think of 2 Pet. 3:3-10, smile and look up, since people like you are just another sign of His soon return.

Rev. 22:20

 

[Jo$h]

How are preterists walking after their own lusts?
This passage has to do with those that make a mock of sin and God's way of saving them through Jesus Christ.

Preterists do not deny the Second Coming. In fact if Christ didn't come none of us would be saved. Heb 9:28 so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him--to salvation!

Then you either deny Rev. 20:8-9 and 22:1, or you spiritualize then away somehow.

How many times in the book of John does Jesus "Spiritualize" things?

 

[Stephen Green]

1. Where is Satan today?
In the Lake of Fire, forever. Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hence the early Christian tradition, which exists still to this day, that Satan is in Hell.

2. Is Jesus coming again?
Jesus is with us forever, fulfilling Rev 21:3 “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will dwell with them."

3. Are we living in the new heaven and new earth?
The Church, the Kingdom of God, is the new heavens and the new earth (Heb 12:18-29*) -- reconciled and made one in Christ (Col. 1:20), an eternal state.

*Heb 12:18-29 is a fantastic passage on this particular issue because it explicitly declares that 1) the heavenly Jerusalem had been reached by the first generation Christians; 2) it exegizes Old Testament prophecy explicitly, showing that the shaking of the "heavens and the earth" refers to the shaking of the old "created" Kingdom founded on the Old Covenant, contrasted with the revelation of the unshakeable uncreated Kingdom of the New Covenant.

4. If we are living in the new heaven and new earth will this earth last forever?
The Kingdom of God will last forever. Is. 9:7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

5. Do you believe things are getting better? If we live in the new heaven and earth what about the sin all around us?
At the moment, no, things aren't getting particularly better! But it's an ebb and flow. Nonetheless this is irrelevant to eschatology, however. There is no Biblical promise that things will "get better", at least in the context you've given, since you are asking "what about the sin all around us" if we are in the new heaven and earth?

Here's what Revelation 22:14-15 says: Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Clearly, there is literally sin "all around" the Church, and not permitted to enter, enumerated in v15. But don't fail to note v14, that those who have the right to the tree of life, and who may enter the city by its gates, are those who have "washed their robes" -- you can't wash without once being dirty. This refers not just to the washing of baptism but also to the sacrament of reconciliation.

We often forget that the early church was a liturgical community not unlike present-day Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican churches. One who had sinned could not take part in the Eucharist, the central act of the liturgy, without first having received the sacrament of reconciliation. Paul alludes to this in 1 Cor. 11:27-34, and the story in 1 Cor and 2 Cor of the sinful brother excommunicated and restored illustrates some of the practices used in the early church. James 5:16 alludes to this also.

This is relevant to your question because the Lord's Supper, as the central act of the liturgy, is considered the intersection of heaven and earth, an ongoing witness of Rev. 21:1-4 and Heb 12:18-22. One can have a very rich, deep study of this in the Church Fathers.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This zombie thread from 2005 is closed.