Quibbling or Learning from the Creation narrative?

[Van]

Would it "invalidate" the Bible to allow that the six days of creation were periods of time, not necessarily 24 hour days? Some of them occurred before the solar system was created which governs our 24 hour day durations. In Genesis 2:4, scripture uses "day" to refer to a period of time. I believe the six "day-age" divisions in the sequential description of creation are for the purpose of culminating in the Lord's Day of Rest.

Note that eight creative events (two on day 3 and two on day 6) each beginning with "... the Lord said," suggest that the sequence of creation was fitted into a "week of creation" for the end purpose of establishing a set apart period for the blessing of mankind and the glory of God.

I believe God did not intend to tell us precisely how He created the Universe, or in what time-frame. This view is supported by Job 38:4-7. On the other hand, I believe God's purpose in the Creation narrative is to demonstrate God's sovereignty, over not only what is, but what we might obtain, the Lord's Rest.

The first thing to note, Genesis 2:3, is God set apart His day of rest, for our benefit. See Exodus 23:12. If we do not engage in or enter His Rest, the result might be immediate death, or the certainty of the Second Death. See Exodus 31:15 or Hebrews 3:18.

When and if we believe into Him, we enter His Rest, fulfilling in our minor way, God's purpose of giving us His Creation narrative.

 

[Ben1445]

Would it "invalidate" the Bible to allow that the six days of creation were periods of time, not necessarily 24 hour days? Some of them occurred before the solar system was created which governs our 24 hour day durations.

They give men a concept of time. God passed three days without any watchmakers or planets. God had days before He made what we associate with the marking and making of time. They were periods of time. Precise measurements of 24 hours. Ordered and planned as one can understand readily from reading Genesis 1.
What portion of the nondescript day would you call the evening? If we are going to turn it into an allegory, why does the end of the period of time come before the beginning?

In Genesis 2:4, scripture uses "day" to refer to a period of time. I believe the six "day-age" divisions in the sequential description of creation are for the purpose of culminating in the Lord's Day of Rest.

How long did God rest after making man?
Did Adam allow God to take an equal amount of time to rest before sinning?

Just talking it out shows they are not periods of eons, years, or anything else but 24 hour days.
God would have to break pattern and have a shorter period of rest because Adam was there for day seven and would measure it by the sun.
Remember, God doesn’t need time. Man does.

Note that eight creative events (two on day 3 and two on day 6) each beginning with "... the Lord said," suggest that the sequence of creation was fitted into a "week of creation" for the end purpose of establishing a set apart period for the blessing of mankind and the glory of God.

Would you suppose that God didn’t “say” anything about either birds or fish because they are not listed?
I could split up day four into two or three also.
You could take out day two because nothing was created, things were only separated.
This is a bit of a ridiculous way to create a theory, especially when God divided creation by days and not by “saids.”

I believe God did not intend to tell us precisely how He created the Universe, or in what time-frame.

Why?

This view is supported by Job 38:4-7.

So He was kidding about Genesis 1?

On the other hand, I believe God's purpose in the Creation narrative is to demonstrate God's sovereignty, over not only what is, but what we might obtain, the Lord's Rest.

Which is inevitably shorter.
I really don’t think it was more complicated than exactly what God said He did.
You want to use evolution? Evolution is not Jesus Christ the Word. It is random process devoid of intelligence.
Without Him, you don’t exist. John stated it very clearly, nothing that is was made without Christ. It is Intelligent Design or evolution. I believe that I was made the way the Creator stated.

The first thing to note, Genesis 2:3, is God set apart His day of rest, for our benefit. See Exodus 23:12. If we do not engage in or enter His Rest, the result might be immediate death, or the certainty of the Second Death. See Exodus 31:15 or Hebrews 3:18.

I think it especially important that an equal amount of time be allotted to the seventh day of rest to show the permanence of it. It certainly should not be less. So then Adam lived for at least millions of years on the seventh day before the 24 hour day took effect.
Not a reasonable theory.

When and if we believe into Him, we enter His Rest, fulfilling in our minor way, God's purpose of giving us His Creation narrative.

 

[cjab]

Would it "invalidate" the Bible to allow that the six days of creation were periods of time, not necessarily 24 hour days? Some of them occurred before the solar system was created which governs our 24 hour day durations. In Genesis 2:4, scripture uses "day" to refer to a period of time. I believe the six "day-age" divisions in the sequential description of creation are for the purpose of culminating in the Lord's Day of Rest.

Note that eight creative events (two on day 3 and two on day 6) each beginning with "... the Lord said," suggest that the sequence of creation was fitted into a "week of creation" for the end purpose of establishing a set apart period for the blessing of mankind and the glory of God.

I believe God did not intend to tell us precisely how He created the Universe, or in what time-frame. This view is supported by Job 38:4-7. On the other hand, I believe God's purpose in the Creation narrative is to demonstrate God's sovereignty, over not only what is, but what we might obtain, the Lord's Rest.

The first thing to note, Genesis 2:3, is God set apart His day of rest, for our benefit. See Exodus 23:12. If we do not engage in or enter His Rest, the result might be immediate death, or the certainty of the Second Death. See Exodus 31:15 or Hebrews 3:18.

When and if we believe into Him, we enter His Rest, fulfilling in our minor way, God's purpose of giving us His Creation narrative.

My thesis: there is no measure of time attached to creation days.

Grounds to credit the six days of creation as not earth days

(a) The six days of creation don't use the Hebrew definite article. The first usage of <definite article><day> comes in Gen 1:14. "The day" (= the daylight) only commences with the appearance of the great lights to divide "the day" from "the night." Contrariwise, there is no concept of "daylight" inherent in creation days, because God himself is their light. cf. Rev 22:5 "There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light."

(b) The days of creation have no implication of subdivision from each other. Evenings and mornings alone define creation days. So they are not as earth days, in that they are characterized only by God's work starting and finishing in respect of specific tasks. That is, creation days do not govern God, but rather God's work governs creation days.

This is the inverse position to earth days, where earth days, and the daylight that is exterior to himself, governs man.

(c) Creation days define only God's labor. Earth days recount only man's labor (Ex 20:9). So they are easily distinguished conceptually as "days in the kingdom of heaven" versus "days on the surface of the earth."

(d) The days of Genesis creation & rest stop at day 7. Earth days continue indefinitely. The seventh creation day is when God rested (not man). Again this suggests that the referents of the Hebrew word for day can be distinguished by their inferred jurisdiction (i.e. earth/heaven) .

Conclusion
To posit a creation day as 24 hours entails a limitation on God's status as governor of all creation, which is contrary to a right view of God. Genesis 18:14, "Is anything too hard for the LORD?" There is no record of God, who is spirit, submitting himself to the 24 hour clock; and so any statement that a creation day is 24 hours is to inform God that there was something above him, even the 24 hour clock, at the very commencement of creation. That seems to me to entail a delusion as to who God actually is and the jurisdiction that he operates in, as well as being inherently absurd.

Earth and heaven are always distinguished in the bible, cf. the Lord's prayer.

 

[Ben1445]

Conclusion
To posit a creation day as 24 hours entails a limitation on God's status as governor of all creation, which is contrary to a right view of God. Genesis 18:14, "Is anything too hard for the LORD?" There is no record of God, who is spirit, submitting himself to the 24 hour clock; and so any statement that a creation day is 24 hours is to inform God that there was something above him, even the 24 hour clock, at the very commencement of creation. That seems to me to entail a delusion as to who God actually is and the jurisdiction that he operates in, as well as being inherently absurd.

No one is limiting God by believing that He made it in one 24 hour day. It is what God said that He did. Evolution limits God when it says that there had to be millions and billions of years. So I ask you, Genesis 18:14, "Is anything too hard for the LORD?"
God didn’t submit Himself to the clock. He made the clock. Clocks don’t change their measurements unless they lack the power of batteries, wall plugs, wind up, motion, etc. Someone has to power the clock all the time.
Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place,and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Colossians 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Since God is the maker of time, I don’t believe that He changed His timing.
There are situations where God shows that He is in charge of time.
Joshua 10:12-14
Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed,
until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher?
So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven,
and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

There is no record of God, who is spirit, submitting himself to the 24 hour clock; and so any statement that a creation day is 24 hours is to inform God that there was something above him, even the 24 hour clock, at the very commencement of creation.

Here is the record.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exodus 31:17
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.


When people begin to question that God meant what He said, it shows me that they don’t understand that God made time, that He operates outside of it as its Creator, but measured His work by it for our example and understanding.
It is not I who has a delusion. If it is delusional to believe God, that would be your own opinion. People laughed at Noah because what God told him was not “science.” It is hard to explain what God has done in this world to people who are “willingly ignorant.”

2Peter 3:5-7
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The absurdity that you reference shows that you don’t have an understanding of time in relation to God.

 

[Van]

I see some long posts, but not much addressing what we should apply to our lives from the Creation narrative.

 

[Ben1445]

I see some long posts, but not much addressing what we should apply to our lives from the Creation narrative.

Believe what God says or don’t believe what God says.

You haven’t picked up on the first major lesson to be learned from Genesis 1.
It is the only thing that I have been discussing. You may call it quibbling, but it tells me that you don’t understand the importance of the subject. You are missing THE point.

 

[Marooncat79]

24 hour periods of time

Morning and evening

1st, 2nd, 3rd etc

It would also destroy the significance of the Sanbath

 

[Marooncat79]

let’s say that a day is 1,000 yrs or more as some want to hold

So do you have 500 yrs of daylight and 500 yrs of dark?

The plants would all die out by 500 yrs

You could actually hold any long day position and it would be the same.

 

[Van]

Believe what God says or don’t believe what God says.

You haven’t picked up on the first major lesson to be learned from Genesis 1.
It is the only thing that I have been discussing. You may call it quibbling, but it tells me that you don’t understand the importance of the subject. You are missing THE point.

People have been wasting their time and effort quibbling about something they are completely ignorant about. I was trying to move the discussion along.

 

[Ben1445]

People have been wasting their time and effort quibbling about something they are completely ignorant about. I was trying to move the discussion along.

I see value in capturing square one for belief in the Words of God. It is worth the time for me to earnestly contend for. I am 100% for logic and science, but the process of creation is something that is accepted by faith in God or in man’s reasoning. I will always attempt to make the point of trusting God over the “scientific” community because God is always right, makes no mistakes, and cannot lie.
God made science, physical, chemical, biological, etc. Man is merely attempting to discover what God has done. It is the first and biggest mistake to ignore the Designer and Creator when discussing His work.
I appreciate the attempt to move the conversation in a different direction. I doubt that the spiritual truths to be gathered will have any desired effect when the physical truths are denied relevance on the basis of their proximity to the spiritual. If physical truths are not accepted unless they are palatable to human reasoning, neither will spiritual truths be acceptable unless they are palatable to human reasoning.

 

[cjab]

let’s say that a day is 1,000 yrs or more as some want to hold

So do you have 500 yrs of daylight and 500 yrs of dark?

The plants would all die out by 500 yrs

You could actually hold any long day position and it would be the same.

Creation days and earth days don't share a common referent. Creation days are spiritual metaphors. Genesis says God divided his work into days, and rested on the seventh. Creation follows the pattern determined by heaven. Man is the image of God. The earthly sanctuary was a pattern of heaven (Heb 8:5). Earth days are a pattern based on creation days. Man should work six days and rest on the seventh, because that is what God did. Now the significance of the sabbath as God's holy day resonates in the spiritual sabbath pursued by the people of God in response to God's call. See Heb 4;7-9, where the word "day" is not used to refer to any 24 hour period, but in its spiritual sense. The seventh day, "the sabbath rest," in Heb 4:9, is used as a metaphor for entering into God's rest.

 

[Deacon]

God simply is. (The Scriptures do not even attempt to prove his existence)
God made everything that is non-God. (Genesis 1:1; John 1:3)
God is a talking God. He desires to communicate to us. ("...and God said..." Genesis 1:28)
Everything God makes is good—very good. (Genesis 1:3, 4, 12, 18, 21, 25)
We are made in the image of God. (Scripturally undefined)
Human beings were made male and female.
Mankind is accountable and responsible to God.

Carson, D. A. 2010. The God Who Is There: Finding Your Place in God’s Story. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.


CHARACTERISTICS OF GOD IN THE CREATION ACCOUNTS

1. Authority over Creation
2. Omnipotence (all powerful)
3. Omniscience (all knowing)
4. Eternality (“In the beginning…”)
5. Unity, no internal strife
6. Purpose/Order (“…it was good” Genesis 1:3, 4, 12, 18, 21, 25)
7. His lovingkindness to mankind (God blessed them Genesis 1:28)
8. Relationship (made in his image Genesis 1:27; “it is not good that man should be alone” Genesis 2:18)
9. Mysterious/Incomprehensibility [denoted by symbolism in the accounts] (Isaiah 55:8; Job 11:7-9)
10. Just (Judgement Genesis 3:14-19)
11. God's attributes are the foundation of morality and justice (Genesis 3:14-19

Rob

 

[Ben1445]

Creation days and earth days don't share a common referent. Creation days are spiritual metaphors. Genesis says God divided his work into days, and rested on the seventh. Creation follows the pattern determined by heaven. Man is the image of God. The earthly sanctuary was a pattern of heaven (Heb 8:5). Earth days are a pattern based on creation days. Man should work six days and rest on the seventh, because that is what God did. Now the significance of the sabbath as God's holy day resonates in the spiritual sabbath pursued by the people of God in response to God's call. See Heb 4;7-9, where the word "day" is not used to refer to any 24 hour period, but in its spiritual sense. The seventh day, "the sabbath rest," in Heb 4:9, is used as a metaphor for entering into God's rest.

So God made the earth in a spiritual day, so that He could pattern a physical day after it so that He could pattern a spiritual day after the physical day?
I think that you have a problem with confirmation bias.

 

[cjab]

Quote by Galileo Galilei (1564- 1642 in his open letter to the Dowager Grand Duchess: the bible shows the way to heaven, not the way the heaven go. "Ergo: The Bible is written in a different (non-scientific) language and has a different object (to science): it teaches us "how to go to heaven, and not how the heavens go." (Non come va il cielo, ma come si va in cielo.) This implies that the Bible's words must be explained and interpreted." [source]

It is uncontroversial that the Hebrew 'yom' (as also the Greek ἡμέρα) has three distinct meanings (a) an era, (b) daylight, especially with the definite article, (c) a day of the week = 24 hours. These are largely reflected in English: "in his day..." means "in his era/lifetime." That "day" comes with spiritual motifs from Gen 1 is clear from Jesus's own usage in John 9:4, where God's work is understood as only capable of being done during the "day;" where "day" means neither daylight nor day of the week.

I like the non-scientific frame of reference to Genesis. As there is no formal exposition of Gen 1 by the apostles, there is freedom to read spiritual insights into it. For me, included would be conceiving of work as for a higher spiritual purpose than work itself. Just as Christ is the radiance of the divine glory (Heb 1:3), which is reflected it in the outcome of his work, and later rest, so God's creation projects his glory. Man's work should glorify himself and his maker, and could be seen as an image of himself. The seventh-day rest awaits him who imitates his maker. Work & rest are the very essence of human existence, but must be grasped spiritually too.

 

[Ben1445]

Quote by Galileo Galilei (1564- 1642 in his open letter to the Dowager Grand Duchess: the bible shows the way to heaven, not the way the heaven go. "Ergo: The Bible is written in a different (non-scientific) language and has a different object (to science): it teaches us "how to go to heaven, and not how the heavens go." (Non come va il cielo, ma come si va in cielo.) This implies that the Bible's words must be explained and interpreted." [source]

It is uncontroversial that the Hebrew 'yom' (as also the Greek ἡμέρα) has three distinct meanings (a) an era, (b) daylight, especially with the definite article, (c) a day of the week = 24 hours. These are largely reflected in English: "in his day..." means "in his era/lifetime." That "day" comes with spiritual motifs from Gen 1 is clear from Jesus's own usage in John 9:4, where God's work is understood as only capable of being done during the "day;" where "day" means neither daylight nor day of the week.

I like the non-scientific frame of reference to Genesis. As there is no formal exposition of Gen 1 by the apostles, there is freedom to read spiritual insights into it. For me, included would be conceiving of work as for a higher spiritual purpose than work itself. Just as Christ is the radiance of the divine glory (Heb 1:3), which is reflected it in the outcome of his work, and later rest, so God's creation projects his glory. Man's work should glorify himself and his maker, and could be seen as an image of himself. The seventh-day rest awaits him who imitates his maker. Work & rest are the very essence of human existence, but must be grasped spiritually too.

The fact that God cannot lie is also a spiritual truth that people have a hard time grasping.
The fact that man is sinful and prone to mistakes is also a spiritual truth that people have a hard time accepting.
When applying this information to Genesis 1, we find that the statements made in God’s Word are more trustworthy than those made by sinful people. But sinful people will often reject the wisdom of God for man’s wisdom which is no wisdom at all. God’s knowledge of the world far exceeds man’s knowledge. God is the power that holds everything together.

Heb. 1
…his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,…

 

[Van]

I see value in capturing square one for belief in the Words of God. It is worth the time for me to earnestly contend for. I am 100% for logic and science, but the process of creation is something that is accepted by faith in God or in man’s reasoning. I will always attempt to make the point of trusting God over the “scientific” community because God is always right, makes no mistakes, and cannot lie.
God made science, physical, chemical, biological, etc. Man is merely attempting to discover what God has done. It is the first and biggest mistake to ignore the Designer and Creator when discussing His work.
I appreciate the attempt to move the conversation in a different direction. I doubt that the spiritual truths to be gathered will have any desired effect when the physical truths are denied relevance on the basis of their proximity to the spiritual. If physical truths are not accepted unless they are palatable to human reasoning, neither will spiritual truths be acceptable unless they are palatable to human reasoning.

From my side of the street, you see value in ignoring Job 38 with God's message that we do not know how square one was built, but we should know why square on was built.

 

[Ben1445]

From my side of the street, you see value in ignoring Job 38 with God's message that we do not know how square one was built, but we should know why square on was built.

I may not know exactly how it happened but I believe the explanation that has been provided. Why can’t you accept the rest of revelation in Scripture and try understand more than one passage at a time? Job didn’t have 66 books. You do.

 

[Van]

I may not know exactly how it happened but I believe the explanation that has been provided. Why can’t you accept the rest of revelation in Scripture and try understand more than one passage at a time? Job didn’t have 66 books. You do.

Sir, I accept Scripture, and try to understand it contextually. I do not say this part is right, which means this other part can be ignored. Scripture is not a smorgasbord, where we take what we like and leave the rest.

 

[Aaron]

I see some long posts, but not much addressing what we should apply to our lives from the Creation narrative.

LOL. We should only pay attention to what is true.

 

[Aaron]

Would it "invalidate" the Bible to allow that the six days of creation were periods of time, not necessarily 24 hour days? Some of them occurred before the solar system was created which governs our 24 hour day durations. In Genesis 2:4, scripture uses "day" to refer to a period of time. I believe the six "day-age" divisions in the sequential description of creation are for the purpose of culminating in the Lord's Day of Rest.

Could they be less than 24 hours? How about a 24-second day? Or are you just trying to make room for millions of years?