Quick-and-Dirty Calvinism

[johnp.]

If I were you...that would get me thinking at least.
I'm always thinking KJ and I said what have numbers to do with it? I stand here until proved wrong. I believe Christ died for my sins.

john.

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
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I see how that Calvinist progression would lead you to such a defensive - yet rediculous position.
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Are you saying I'm consistant? That is a compliment I like.

I think it is much more consistent of you to clailm that you will be like the God you claim to serve.

Your "election by genetics" of course is just you taking a wild leap off the cliff uncertain how to 'defend calvinism at all costs".

You seem torn between "Eli says I get to hate my precious child" and "genetics determines that my precious child will never have to be hated by me".

I would like to see how the "Two JohnP's" ever get together on that one.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[johnp.]

Hello Bob.

I would like to see how the "Two JohnP's" ever get together on that one.

There is only one johnp and many have praised the Lord for His tender mercies.
Yet Eli is a gift to us and from his testimony we are told the answer to your rubbish and the answer to it is, "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." Simple as that but you will not have it but continue the nonsense of a weeping god weeping at the torture He inflicts on people.
You cannot even answer with scripture your opinion is not scripture.
As for atonement old Eli comes in pretty handy there as well as Eli proves beyond doubt that limited atonement is a fact. "1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
You can attack me all you like but it is without scripture.

You seem torn between "Eli says I get to hate my precious child" and "genetics determines that my precious child will never have to be hated by me".

Even so he proves limited atonement and that God gives us grace to say, "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." And Eze 37:25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever.
A thing you said Calvin did not believe in but did and you are not man enough to admit error?

john.

 

[BobRyan]

you will not have it but continue the nonsense of a weeping god weeping

Hmmm. Now "why" would I keep insisting that God's Word is true when it says He weeps over the lost EVEN Though Eli was so submisive to God??

Why why why?? Shouldn't I construe the statement of submissive ELI in such a way as to bend it back on the Word of God and ignore the following?

When the “unchanging God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Luke 19:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

Lament over Jerusalem

Matt 23

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

Gen 6:
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

Isaiah 63:So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

Hosea 11:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.

Ezek 18:20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

Why of course I would gladly ignore all this scripture "IF" I were an all-for-calvinism devotee of Calvinism bent on twisting some off-the-wall text about Eli as an excuse to ignore the rest of scripture!

But then - that would not be "me" would it?

Fortunately I CHOOSE to accept scripture and not wrench the texts above out of their place just because Eli said "Thy will be done" to God.

OThers -- seeking to make a mountain out of a mole hill -- will not be so careful with scripture.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[johnp.]

Hello Bob.

Fortunately I CHOOSE to accept scripture and not wrench the texts above out of their place just because Eli said "Thy will be done" to God.

Just because Eli said that did he? Thank you!

john.

 

[OCC]

Well GOD said He did not delight in the death of the wicked.

What say you to that???? Johnp???

 

[johnp.]

Hello KJ.

Well GOD said He did not delight in the death of the wicked.

Well there is something in His favour! That makes Him different from Hitler then does it in your mind? You do compare God to Hitler don't you?

What say you to that???? Johnp???

As above KJ.

john.

 

[OCC]

No...I don't compare God to Hitler.

My estimation of your intelligence and willingness to "debate" the facts rather than just argue and cause trouble is rapidly falling.

 

[johnp.]

Hello KJ.

No...I don't compare God to Hitler.

Oh sorry I thought you did because I'm sure you asked me to compare Him with Hitler and I thought that was what you were doing.

My estimation of your intelligence...

Yea I know man. You probably started too high with me and then became disappointed, you should adjust your opinion like I did with you after your first post! HaHa!

...and willingness to "debate" the facts...

Did I ever ask you what being cursed by God means?

...rather than just argue and cause trouble...

Me? You sound like the missus you do. You two ought to get together.

...is rapidly falling.

The sentence was not well constructed.

john.

 

[OCC]

Words of a prating fool...I am reading Proverbs right now. Keep them comin John.

 

[OCC]

As for me getting with your wife...???

I no longer consider you a brother. May God have mercy on your soul.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by King James:
As for me getting with your wife...???

I no longer consider you a brother. May God have mercy on your soul.

I don't think he meant it the way you took it King James. Maybe that's why you're not communicating on the other stuff!

 

[OCC]

Maybe you're right hardsheller. If it's not how he meant it then I apologize. All I know is if I would have said that...people would have taken it the wrong way.

 

[johnp.]

Thank you Hardsheller.

I don't think he meant it the way you took it King James.

You are a gentleman.

john.

 

[rc]

God does not delight in the death of the wicked. That is true, but there is no point made here. God is Glorified in the punishment of the wicked because it exalts His righteousness. God's attributes and character are VERY complex and multifaceted to say the least. It is an event though that He has ordained Chiefly for His glory, and He does what ULTIMATELY pleases Himself.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by rc:
God does not delight in the death of the wicked. That is true,

This is a "BIG" step for those posting in favor of Calvinism so far. I applaud this move in favor of the Bible.

The Bible says in fact - that God WEEPS over the lost!!

That ALL HIS COMPASSIONS are stirred up over their loss. That they "rejected God's PURPOSE for them". THat "HE IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY should perish"!!!

If one is determined to turn a blind eye to this aspect of God's character then NO WONDER they anticipate JOY at seeing their own precious child tormented in the flames of Rev 14:10 as SEEN by the saints (as stated by Edwards!!).

Your statement above is the first move I have seen so far in returning to a BIBLE based view of God on this topic from the Calvinist side of the Isle!!

rc said --
but there is no point made here.

Wrong!!

The Bible has made a HUGE Point here about the character of God!!

IT SAYS - He is a God of LOVE -- UNCHANGING - WEEPING over the Lost -- ALL His compassions stirred up over them --

It says that LOVE is that thing which REMAINS and GROWS throughout eternity instead of being ABOLISHED so that Calvinist saints can experience JOY when watching their loved ones tormented in the flames of Rev 14:10 as they SEE THEM tormented (according to the TEXT and to Johnathan Edwards).

Cavlinism paints the OPPOSITE view of God's character as compared to texts SHOWING the unchanging impartial God to WEEP over the lost!!

rc said --
God is Glorified in the punishment of the wicked because it exalts His righteousness. God's attributes and character are VERY complex and multifaceted to say the least.

There is no question that fiery hell - the lake of fire, burning with fire and brimstone - tormenting the wicked as they pay the penalty for their sins IS what God's justice demands = it is what His Law demands and it IS required for a stable sin-free peaceful universe where the good of all is being wisely accomplished in infinite wisdom.

But that is VERY far from the monsterous claim that God gets JOY out of the torment!! Rather it would be much better to STAY with the scripture where we are told that the UNCHANGING God who does NOT show partiality is one who WEEPS over the lost and within whom ALL HIS COMPASSIONS as strirred up!!

IT PLEASES a parent to have obedient children and a peaceful family. That does NOT mean that the parent has JOY in causing pain to the children when necessary! Calvinism's attempt to "be god" has failed once again! Better to just accept scripture and not have to constantly redefine - re-edit- spin and twist it to meet the needs of Calvinism's wild imaginings.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[dianetavegia]

God does not delight in the death of the wicked. That is true,

Yet Calvinist would insist that God condemned them to damnation before the formation of this earth so why would he not 'delight' in said damnation? He ordained it, according to they!

 

[rc]

But that is VERY far from the monsterous claim that God gets JOY out of the torment

This has never been said. Quit setting up strawmen. Your only feeding your own vanity.

God weeps, God doesn't change... oh boy Bob you've impressed me with your two verse systematic theology... please... unfortunately for you and your understanding, God is much more complex than you care to study.

You have been told by me and others that you can not misplace God's actions in different dispensations. You have further not understood the Chief Ends to which God does EVERYTHING. And that is for His Glory. This does transcend this age because of the verses that describe what we will be doing in heaven. You on the other hand are found wanting.... grasping onto a false understanding and trying to force it on people that know better. This is a broken record Bob and broken records are annoying.

 

[Hardsheller]

Bob - You Wrote -

The Bible says in fact - that God WEEPS over the lost!!

Where exactly does it say that? Could you give me chapter and verse?

In fact why don't you just cut and paste the verse right in your answer for all the world to see.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> God does not delight in the death of the wicked. That is true,

Yet Calvinist would insist that God condemned them to damnation before the formation of this earth so why would he not 'delight' in said damnation? He ordained it, according to they! </font>[/QUOTE]Diane, This Calvinist has never said that.