• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Race Washing

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Egyptian lawyer sues Netflix for depicting Cleopatra as Black woman | Africanews

I found this interesting.

At one time we had white actors playing non-white roles (like Charlton Heston playing Moses).

I have seen Black actors do the same. For example, one of my favorite actors, Nonso Anozie, played Samson (and did a great job) although Anozie is Black and Samson was semitic.

Should actors be given roles based on their talent or race (or both)?

Is it offensive to have an actor of one race play a character of another?

And, does this impact how our culture actually views history?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Can be. I do not see that it has to be offensive.
I think you are right. It may also depend on context

Having a White or Black man play Moses or Jesus instead of choosing a racially accurate person is one thing. Suggesting Leonardo DiCaprio play MLK Jr may be problematic.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Egyptian lawyer sues Netflix for depicting Cleopatra as Black woman | Africanews

I found this interesting.

At one time we had white actors playing non-white roles (like Charlton Heston playing Moses).

I have seen Black actors do the same. For example, one of my favorite actors, Nonso Anozie, played Samson (and did a great job) although Anozie is Black and Samson was semitic.

Should actors be given roles based on their talent or race (or both)?

Is it offensive to have an actor of one race play a character of another?

And, does this impact how our culture actually views history?

Of course actors can portray other humans. The idea that the actor needs to be the same height or weight, or skin color, or eye color is nonsense. No human is the same as another, so to draw arbitrary lines for the purpose of disenfranchising someone is wrong.

OTOH, not allowing a person of color to portray a non-black skin color person is racist. What was wrong with "black face" portrayals is that they demeaned blacks as being below non-blacks, just as the chauffeur in Charlie Chan movies, played as rather stupid and cowardly.

In the past, roles were denied to people of color or Asians, and that was wrong, but to say only Asians or Non-whites can portray Asians or Non-whites is just as wrong, in my opinion.
 
Last edited:

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Of course actors can portray other humans. The idea that the actor needs to be the same height or weight, or skin color, or eye color is nonsense. No human is the same as another, so to draw arbitrary lines for the purpose of disenfranchising someone is wrong.

OTOH, not allowing a person of color to portray a non-black skin color person is racist. What was wrong with "black face" portrayals is that they demeaned blacks as being below non-blacks, just as the chauffeur in Charlie Chan movies, played as rather stupid and cowardly.

In the past, roles were denied to people of color or Asians, and that was wrong, but to say only Asians or Non-whites can portray Asians or Non-whites is just as wrong, in my opinion.
It would be interesting to see a civil rights movie where MLK was White and George Wallace was Black. But I'm not sure it is right. Perhaps non-White and non-Black people wouldn't care.

I get why one of Egyptian ancestry would be offended with a White or Black woman playing Cleopatra (given that they are of that race).

I agree that black face is wrong.
 

rsr

<b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator
It is no coincidence that the Jim Crow laws were named for a black-face character from early minstrel shows.

Historian Dale Cockrell once noted that poor and working-class whites who felt “squeezed politically, economically, and socially from the top, but also from the bottom, invented minstrelsy” as a way of expressing the oppression that marked being members of the majority, but outside of the white norm. Minstrelsy, comedic performances of “blackness” by whites in exaggerated costumes and make-up, cannot be separated fully from the racial derision and stereotyping at its core. By distorting the features and culture of African Americans—including their looks, language, dance, deportment, and character—white Americans were able to codify whiteness across class and geopolitical lines as its antithesis.

Blackface: The Birth of An American Stereotype
 

RighteousnessTemperance&

Well-Known Member
Intriguing topic--murky and complex (no pun intended).

A primary factor will be economic. Quality of acting as well.

On a professional level, when race is an essential part of a theme, then altering it is bound to be objectionable to some, depending on degree.

But racial perspectives vary both between and within societies.

And then there is the issue of who is considered “the good guy” and who “the bad guy.” :eek:
 

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It may not always be so simple to "race-swap" characters. For the Egyptians, this can be a sore spot for their patriotic outlook.

Egypt's ancient history contained a particular period where Egypt was conquered by Nubian kings.
Twenty-fifth Dynasty of Egypt - Wikipedia
These were and to an extent still often are thought of as invaders to a lot of Egyptians.
Cleopatra was simply not a part of this dynasty.

The article said nothing about this, but one might read a latent complaint in these statements here:

The lawyer argues that the depiction is historically inaccurate and offensive to the Egyptian people.
"In order to preserve the Egyptian national and cultural identity among Egyptians all over the world… we ask and seek you to take the necessary legal measures against this platform."

I'm no expert, but, my understanding is that cultural "Egyptians" simply did not, and do not think of the "Black Pharaohs" as "Egyptians".
They were (are?) in the minds of many Egyptians invaders. It is a sore spot to them.

If the goal of an historical piece even an historical fiction is to portray an actual historical setting even if elements of character and plot are altered for entertainment value; there is no inherent benefit of "race-swapping" characters in your world-building. The "World" you build should reflect as accurately as possible the actual world that then was, if for no other reason than it makes immersion difficult for the audience.

I simply would not easily "believe" a story about Vikings set in the era of the Nordic conquest where the actors were a hodge-podge of diversity. It is the responsibility of a good filmmaker to make immersion and believability as easy as possible for the audience.
It is bad craftmanship to do otherwise. I would not want to see a film depicting the era of the samurai flooded with non-Asians.

If I make a film that takes place in modern New York City, I am free to meet all the diversity quotas and wallow in my deliberate casting of minorites, because diversity in a modern Metropolis is believable. It is therefore good in my "world-building" to show diversity.
I do not believe it is good in an historical setting to unnecessarily and deliberately racially miscast an historical figure or figures. It is distracting to the audience.

Historical films should not reflect OUR world, but THEIR world.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
It may not always be so simple to "race-swap" characters. For the Egyptians, this can be a sore spot for their patriotic outlook.

Egypt's ancient history contained a particular period where Egypt was conquered by Nubian kings.
Twenty-fifth Dynasty of Egypt - Wikipedia
These were and to an extent still often are thought of as invaders to a lot of Egyptians.
Cleopatra was simply not a part of this dynasty.

The article said nothing about this, but one might read a latent complaint in these statements here:

The lawyer argues that the depiction is historically inaccurate and offensive to the Egyptian people.
"In order to preserve the Egyptian national and cultural identity among Egyptians all over the world… we ask and seek you to take the necessary legal measures against this platform."

I'm no expert, but, my understanding is that cultural "Egyptians" simply did not, and do not think of the "Black Pharaohs" as "Egyptians".
They were (are?) in the minds of many Egyptians invaders. It is a sore spot to them.

If the goal of an historical piece even an historical fiction is to portray an actual historical setting even if elements of character and plot are altered for entertainment value; there is no inherent benefit of "race-swapping" characters in your world-building. The "World" you build should reflect as accurately as possible the actual world that then was, if for no other reason than it makes immersion difficult for the audience.

I simply would not easily "believe" a story about Vikings set in the era of the Nordic conquest where the actors were a hodge-podge of diversity. It is the responsibility of a good filmmaker to make immersion and believability as easy as possible for the audience.
It is bad craftmanship to do otherwise. I would not want to see a film depicting the era of the samurai flooded with non-Asians.

If I make a film that takes place in modern New York City, I am free to meet all the diversity quotas and wallow in my deliberate casting of minorites, because diversity in a modern Metropolis is believable. It is therefore good in my "world-building" to show diversity.
I do not believe it is good in an historical setting to unnecessarily and deliberately racially miscast an historical figure or figures. It is distracting to the audience.

Historical films should not reflect OUR world, but THEIR world.
The issue with Cleopatra is she was Macedonian Greek (not really Egyptian). We know a semblance of how she looked based on her image which she would have had to have approved (particularly on coins). The closest we could get today would be Greek or Semitic.

Doesn't bother me what race the actor is who plays her as she isn't a part of my history. Just let it be a good actor.

What does bother me is the idea of "black washing" based on political agendas. The reason it is concerning is too much effort has gone into creating false histories in order to support agendas barely hidden just beneath the surface.

When Gal Gadot was chosen to play Cleopatra there was an uproar about how we are moving backwards as a culture with the charge of "white washing". The idea is Cleopatra's mother could have been at least partially Egyptian. BUT historically Gadot would be a racially appropriate choice (even if Cleopatra had a mother who was at least part Egyptian).

The same people, however, did not complain when a Black woman was chosen to play Cleopatra for Netflix (that came from an Egyptian lawyer).
 

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The issue with Cleopatra is she was Macedonian Greek (not really Egyptian). We know a semblance of how she looked based on her image which she would have had to have approved (particularly on coins). The closest we could get today would be Greek or Semitic.

Well, we do know two things about what are often called "The Black Pharaohs" A term professional historians coined.
1.) There was a period of Nubian conquerors of Egypt who were black and set themselves up as the Pharaohs of Egypt.
2.) This was/is a sore spot for national ethnic Egyptians. (Or at least some of them)

I don't know if this is in any was part of what motivates this particular lawyer (for all I know he's just a racist jerk)... But, it could be, even on a subconscious level.
Put differently, I don't think any Egyptian would be offended by Gal Gadot, Elizabeth Taylor, or even say Selma Hayek playing Cleopatra if they can pull of the look.
I'd argue any of them could. But an obviously Black actress can't pull off the look easily.
I'd submit that James Earl Jones (an incredible actor) wouldn't make a good James Bond either.

Just let it be a good actor.
That isn't good enough when portraying an historical figure.
I'd argue Meryl Streep and Emma Thompson are the best actresses in the world today...but, I wouldn't cast them to play Cleopatra.
I think Warwick Davis is a brilliant actor: I wouldn't cast him to play Abraham Lincoln.
It breaks immersion.
You have now broken "kayfabe" and that is a sin.
What does bother me is the idea of "black washing" based on political agendas. The reason it is concerning is too much effort has gone into creating false histories in order to support agendas barely hidden just beneath the surface.
Agreed. It's also a betrayal of your audience.
Your audience needs to feel immersion in your story. This means not constantly reminding your audience that the actor on the screen is clearly NOT the person they are portraying.
If audiences have (and they do) a mental image of Cleopatra in their head, then a good film-maker would show them the picture they expect in order to achieve believability.
We enjoy fictions because we "suspend disbelief". We somewhat buy into the lie we are being told in order to enjoy it. A good film maker makes that as easy as possible on his audience. But an historical fiction has automatic limitations placed upon it.

Paul Giamatti was fantastic as John Adams....He is, after all, a fantastic actor.
I would not cast him to play George Washington, because we have a really good idea of what Washington looked like, and Paul Giamatti ain't it.

When Gal Gadot was chosen to play Cleopatra there was an uproar about how we are moving backwards as a culture with the charge of "white washing". The idea is Cleopatra's mother could have been at least partially Egyptian. BUT historically Gadot would be a racially appropriate choice (even if Cleopatra had a mother who was at least part Egyptian).
Gal Gadot is a perfectly good choice because she can believably be made to imitate the image in our heads of what Cleopatra looked like. Ditto Elizabeth Taylor.
The same people, however, did not complain when a Black woman was chosen to play Cleopatra for Netflix (that came from an Egyptian lawyer).
Of course not.
I suppose what I am complaining about is that the woke trend of race-swapping in order to check boxes is not merely hypocritical....It's also unfair to your audience. It is making films altogether worse. It's simply BAD filmmaking.

I just finished the first season of Netflix's historical drama "Medici". As expected... a story about Rennaisance era florentines was portrayed by either Italians or someone believably Italian. Ironically, the only actor I found a little distracting was Dustin Hoffman, and that is not due to his not being talented. He was no doubt hired because of star-power, but, I didn't like the decision. In other words....Italian actors make really good casting choices to play Italians.

This actress playing Cleopatra may be the most talented actress that has ever lived.
She is still not a good casting choice to play Cleopatra if your goal is to tell a good story, and convince the audience to suspend the disbelief that this is not Cleopatra but is, indeed, who she is pretending to be.

Pure fiction and Historical fiction are not the same thing in this since.
I must admit, I found Nonso Anozie a little distracting when he portrayed Sampson, but not terribly so, because we have no clue what he looked like...Why, after all, do we even assume he was muscular? There's no good reason to assume he was actually.
Nonetheless, I would cast someone muscular because it fits the mental image we have of Sampson.
Furthermore, Sampson could, indeed, theoretically, have been black!
What we do know for certain is that he was of the Jewish nation which, apart from proselytes, are Semitic, not African. Thus, I would have chosen someone believably Semitic. Sampson is an historical figure, not a fictional character and it is unlikely (but not impossible) that he was black.

An actor playing a known historical figure cannot look however you want them to look.
 
Last edited:

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Well, we do know two things about what are often called "The Black Pharaohs" A term professional historians coined.
1.) There was a period of Nubian conquerors of Egypt who were black and set themselves up as the Pharaohs of Egypt.
2.) This was/is a sore spot for national ethnic Egyptians. (Or at least some of them)

I don't know if this is in any was part of what motivates this particular lawyer (for all I know he's just a racist jerk)... But, it could be, even on a subconscious level.
Put differently, I don't think any Egyptian would be offended by Gal Gadot, Elizabeth Taylor, or even say Selma Hayek playing Cleopatra if they can pull of the look.
I'd argue any of them could. But an obviously Black actress can't pull off the look easily.
I'd submit that James Earl Jones (an incredible actor) wouldn't make a good James Bond either.


That isn't good enough when portraying an historical figure.
I'd argue Meryl Streep and Emma Thompson are the best actresses in the world today...but, I wouldn't cast them to play Cleopatra.
I think Warwick Davis is a brilliant actor: I wouldn't cast him to play Abraham Lincoln.
It breaks immersion.
You have now broken "kayfabe" and that is a sin.

Agreed. It's also a betrayal of your audience.
Your audience needs to feel immersion in your story. This means not constantly reminding your audience that the actor on the screen is clearly NOT the person they are portraying.
If audiences have (and they do) a mental image of Cleopatra in their head, then a good film-maker would show them the picture they expect in order to achieve believability.
We enjoy fictions because we "suspend disbelief". We somewhat buy into the lie we are being told in order to enjoy it. A good film maker makes that as easy as possible on his audience. But an historical fiction has automatic limitations placed upon it.

Paul Giamatti was fantastic as John Adams....He is, after all, a fantastic actor.
I would not cast him to play George Washington, because we have a really good idea of what Washington looked like, and Paul Giamatti ain't it.


Gal Gadot is a perfectly good choice because she can believably be made to imitate the image in our heads of what Cleopatra looked like. Ditto Elizabeth Taylor.

Of course not.
I suppose what I am complaining about is that the woke trend of race-swapping in order to check boxes is not merely hypocritical....It's also unfair to your audience. It is making films altogether worse. It's simply BAD filmmaking.

I just finished the first season of Netflix's historical drama "Medici". As expected... a story about Rennaisance era florentines was portrayed by either Italians or someone believably Italian. Ironically, the only actor I found a little distracting was Dustin Hoffman, and that is not due to his not being talented. He was no doubt hired because of star-power, but, I didn't like the decision. In other words....Italian actors make really good casting choices to play Italians.

This actress playing Cleopatra may be the most talented actress that has ever lived.
She is still not a good casting choice to play Cleopatra if your goal is to tell a good story, and convince the audience to suspend the disbelief that this is not Cleopatra but is, indeed, who she is pretending to be.

Pure fiction and Historical fiction are not the same thing in this since.
I must admit, I found Nonso Anozie a little distracting when he portrayed Sampson, but not terribly so, because we have no clue what he looked like...Why, after all, do we even assume he was muscular? There's no good reason to assume he was actually.
Nonetheless, I would cast someone muscular because it fits the mental image we have of Sampson.
Furthermore, Sampson could, indeed, theoretically, have been black!
What we do know for certain is that he was of the Jewish nation which, apart from proselytes, are Semitic, not African. Thus, I would have chosen someone believably Semitic. Sampson is an historical figure, not a fictional character and it is unlikely (but not impossible) that he was black.

An actor playing a known historical figure cannot look however you want them to look.
I see your point.

I love to see Nonso Anozie act. And his portrayal of Moses was, as far as acting goes, very good. But at the same time he did not fit the character insofar as what we know of those living around Jerusalem (Samson was from Zorah) and that did take away from the series (same with Sharon Duncan-Brewster playing Manoah's wife).

It was still good, but it seemed "off" because of casting choices. That said, I think Anozie did a much better job portraying Samson than Ben Stiller would have ;) .
 

Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
So, why would blackface be wrong?
(yes serious question)

images


I am a great "old" movie buff. When I see films with blackface in it - it's cringe-worthy. I know a lot of which films have this and I tend to avoid them.

Why? Because it was done to make black people look::
  • foolish
  • childlike/helpless or sexualized
  • subhuman
  • extremely and stereotypically uneducated/ignorant
  • lazy
  • cowardly
Blackface was for the entertainment of white people who had these beliefs about black people.
 

Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
How about "Asianface"?

Every time I see this scene I wind up almost breaking a rib from laughing.


The exaggeration of the stereotype is what makes it funny. Comedy is always based on a seed on truth blown up to massive proportions.
 

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I see your point.

I love to see Nonso Anozie act. And his portrayal of Moses was, as far as acting goes, very good. But at the same time he did not fit the character insofar as what we know of those living around Jerusalem (Samson was from Zorah) and that did take away from the series (same with Sharon Duncan-Brewster playing Manoah's wife).

It was still good, but it seemed "off" because of casting choices. That said, I think Anozie did a much better job portraying Samson than Ben Stiller would have ;) .
Heretic!!! Ben stiller would have been a much better sampson! ;)

In all truth....If you want to compare Black actors who would make a great Sampson....(remember you need a muscular imposing person) I'm on the side of Idris Elba!
He's epic cool.
 

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Of course actors can portray other humans.
That's what they do by definition.
The idea that the actor needs to be the same height or weight, or skin color, or eye color is nonsense.
No, it isn't.

If it's a portrayal of an historical person (or even a recast of a known fictional one) You want an actor/actress who can convincingly stand in for that person.
Hate to break it to you, but, Peter Dinklage (an insanely talented actor) cannot convincingly portray Robert E. Lee or Luke Skywalker.
No human is the same as another,
But, they may share common traits
so to draw arbitrary lines
The lines are not "arbitrary"....they are for the purpose of casting a convincingly believable actor/actress to convince the audience that they are indeed peering into someone else's life....
See Paul Giamatti's portrayal of John Adams....it's quite convincing...
It just so happens (by pure coincidence, I'm sure) that both men are somewhat short and portly....

I personally am not convinced the casting director was debating between casting Paul Giamatti (short, portly and American)
....and Benedict Cumberbatch <--(Tall, slim, and, while insanely talented, also incurably British)
for the purpose of disenfranchising someone is wrong.
Whatever the word "disenfranchise" now means....that's not why a good casting director would do it.
They would do it to help the audience suspend disbelief.
OTOH, not allowing a person of color to portray a non-black skin color person is racist.
No, it isn't.
Not paying money to a black actor to portray an obviously not-black-character is called "good casting".
I would pay Idris Elba to play Shaka Zulu....I would not pay Jeremy Irons to do so.
I would pay Jeremy Irons to play a Jesuit priest in "The Mission" (possibly one of the most underrated films ever). I would not pay Idris Elba to do so....
That's how that works.

An Asian actor would not make a convincing Jesus of Nazareth either (no matter how talented he was)... sorry to break it to you:

But, Neither would The very talented (but clearly Welsh Ioan Gruffud)<---underrated actor people, admit it!!!
What was wrong with "black face" portrayals is that they demeaned blacks as being below non-blacks, just as the chauffeur in Charlie Chan movies, played as rather stupid and cowardly.
agreed.
In the past, roles were denied to people of color or Asians, and that was wrong, but to say only Asians or Non-whites can portray Asians or Non-whites is just as wrong, in my opinion.
Yes...
But, if I were making a film series depicting the Tokugawa Shogunate...
You would find a distinct lack of white, black or Mexican actors in the show

(except perhaps Ricardo Montalban....):Whistling I'd force the issue because he was that super-cool.
 
Last edited:
Top