Randomness in the Bible?

[Van]

Exhaustive determinism is not biblical

I have provided three lines of evidence, supported by specific scripture
and rather than address these lines of evidence, I was asked for more evidence.

The Bible says on numerous occasions things happen by chance. The attempted refutation was chance does not mean chance. Among the verses cited were Luke 10:31, 2 Chronicles 18:33. Again the attempted refutation was to say it only appeared random, but actually God deterministically controlled the flight according to His predetermined purpose and plan. This is simply making God's inspired word to no effect. The word used was random.
The assertion that some know what has not been divinely revealed because it fits their man-made doctrine is without merit.

The second line of evidence against exhaustive determinism is God's word says we make choices where our choice determines the outcome, such as when God sets before us life and death and begs us to choose life. If the outcome had been predetermined, then we would not be making a choice, we would be making a non-choice. This again simply denies scripture and evades it by redefining the mean of the word choice.

The third line of evidence against exhaustive determinism is the intervention of God, bringing about His desired outcome. If His outcome had been exhaustively predetermined, there would be no interventions to bring about His specific plan.

Any one of these lines of evidence completely overturns the man-made doctrine of exhaustive determinism, and when all three are rejected out of hand, it boggles the mind.

 

[Skandelon]

I forgive your ignorance.

Don't be inconsistent by blaming me for that, clearly God hasn't given me the intelligence he has given you. Just thank God for making you smarter and if God decreed for me to "get it" then I will and you really don't need to waste your time trying to convince me. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Skandelon]

I have provided three lines of evidence, supported by specific scripture
and rather than address these lines of evidence, I was asked for more evidence.

The Bible says on numerous occasions things happen by chance. The attempted refutation was chance does not mean chance. Among the verses cited were Luke 10:31, 2 Chronicles 18:33. Again the attempted refutation was to say it only appeared random, but actually God deterministically controlled the flight according to His predetermined purpose and plan. This is simply making God's inspired word to no effect. The word used was random.
The assertion that some know what has not been divinely revealed because it fits their man-made doctrine is without merit.

It's the same thing they do with the word "foreknowledge." They interpret it to mean "predetermine" rather than what the scripture actually says making the word to no effect.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Don't be inconsistent by blaming me for that, clearly God hasn't given me the intelligence he has given you. Just thank God for making you smarter and if God decreed for me to "get it" then I will and you really don't need to waste your time trying to convince me. :smilewinkgrin:

You just can't help but try to fight with me, can you? I show you the bible is inerrant and try to make peace with you, and instead of being thankful for the info and accepting peace you just have to be abrasive. You can't just let it rest. You remind me of a labrador I once had.

 

[Skandelon]

You just can't help but try to fight with me, can you? I show you the bible is inerrant and try to make peace with you, and instead of being thankful for the info and accepting peace you just have to be abrasive. You can't just let it rest. You remind me of a labrador I once had.

Oh, yeah, claiming to forgive someone's ignorance is such a brotherly and peaceful reply.

I have two labs and both of them are very sweet. Neither of them are the least bit Calvinistic. :love2:

 

[Luke2427]

I have provided three lines of evidence, supported by specific scripture
and rather than address these lines of evidence, I was asked for more evidence.

The Bible says on numerous occasions things happen by chance. The attempted refutation was chance does not mean chance. Among the verses cited were Luke 10:31, 2 Chronicles 18:33. Again the attempted refutation was to say it only appeared random, but actually God deterministically controlled the flight according to His predetermined purpose and plan. This is simply making God's inspired word to no effect. The word used was random.
The assertion that some know what has not been divinely revealed because it fits their man-made doctrine is without merit.

The second line of evidence against exhaustive determinism is God's word says we make choices where our choice determines the outcome, such as when God sets before us life and death and begs us to choose life. If the outcome had been predetermined, then we would not be making a choice, we would be making a non-choice. This again simply denies scripture and evades it by redefining the mean of the word choice.

The third line of evidence against exhaustive determinism is the intervention of God, bringing about His desired outcome. If His outcome had been exhaustively predetermined, there would be no interventions to bring about His specific plan.

Any one of these lines of evidence completely overturns the man-made doctrine of exhaustive determinism, and when all three are rejected out of hand, it boggles the mind.

It was obviously only random on the part of the man who drew the bow because God said that very day that Ahab would die in battle.

God had a plan and a purpose and an aim and a goal in the killing of Ahab. The word of God is clear on this. That sharply contradicts the entire ESSENCE of the definition of the word- random.

ran·dom
   /ˈrændəm/ Show Spelled[ran-duhm] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers.
2.
Statistics . of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen.
3.
Building Trades .
a.
(of building materials) lacking uniformity of dimensions: random shingles.
b.
(of ashlar) laid without continuous courses.
c.
constructed or applied without regularity: random bond.
–noun
4.
Chiefly British . bank3 ( def. 7b ) .
–adverb
5.
Building Trades . without uniformity: random-sized slates.
—Idiom
6.
at random, without definite aim, purpose, method, or adherence to a prior arrangement; in a haphazard way: Contestants were chosen at random from the studio audience.

There is no way you can reconcile the way that God killed Ahab with the definition above. No way.

No one is arguing that randomness cannot exist at all- but it can only exist in the motives of MAN. It CANNOT exist in the council halls of the all-knowing, eternal, immutable, almighty wholly sovereign God.

The Word of God is ABUNDANTLY clear on this. It is LITERALLY more clear on this than it is on the VIRGIN BIRTH.

Romans 11:36 "For of Him and through Him and To him are ALL THINGS."

Ephesians 1 "God worketh ALL THINGS after the council of his own will"

Col 1- "He is before all things and by Him all things consist..."

Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast in the lap but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD."

Isa 45:5-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides Me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides Me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Case closed on that passage.

The case was closed earlier on the other passage.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Oh, yeah, claiming to forgive someone's ignorance is such a brotherly and peaceful reply.

Indeed. Ignorance is a natural human condition. I forgive you for that. I hope that you will come to know that the bible is true, so I wish you well.

 

[Robert Snow]

Calvinism and fatalism have nothing to do with one another.

They are Siamese twins.

 

[Luke2427]

They are Siamese twins.

Snow this is you MO. Unsubstantiated, unsupported drive-by posts.

Prove assertions like these or have the decency to keep them to yourself.

 

[Skandelon]

Indeed. Ignorance is a natural human condition. I forgive you for that. I hope that you will come to know that the bible is true, so I wish you well.

2 Tim 3:15 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures. They have the power to give you wisdom so that you can be saved through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Skandelon]

:tear:Luke,

I want you to know my feelings are hurt. I've asked you for weeks and weeks for you to define "decree" and "ordain" still haven't gotten it, while it only took a couple of prods to get you to define "random." I wonder why that is? Is it me? You don't like me, do you?:tear:

 

[Luke2427]

:tear:Luke,

I want you to know my feelings are hurt. I've asked you for weeks and weeks for you to define "decree" and "ordain" still haven't gotten it, while it only took a couple of prods to get you to define "random." I wonder why that is? Is it me? You don't like me, do you?:tear:

I gave you the finest defintion for "decree" known to man right out of the gate.

That you erroneously think that Confessions do not define theological terms, which is a notion of the highest degree of absurdity imaginable, is not my fault.

God bless!

 

[Van]

Hi Luke2427, please think carefully about this: Is your position that Our All-powerful God, who does as He pleases, cannot create a purview where random circumstances occur. Remember that with God, all things are possible.

You seem to recognize that God created man with the ability to act autonomously, and thus shoot an arrow without regard for what will happen. That is a huge step toward my view. You are no longer advocating exhaustive determinism. Now another autonomous act would be for us to choose life or death, trust Jesus or not. And this choice then would alter the outcome of our lives. It requires that God had not predetermined what we would choose and therefore turn the scripture that says we make a choice into a fiction.

Lets take your verse that says God works all things after the counsel of His will. Now if His will is to create a purview where nature operates autonomously to a degree, then this verse does not support a contrary view. If His will is to create a purview where we make plans, choices of a sort, and then allows these to alter the outcome, such as life or death, then this is fully consistent with your verse.

Lets take another, someone throwing dice. God could cause any number of His choosing to come up, or He could allow His natural laws to cause an unpredetermined number to come up. To say God always does one or the other is without merit, clearly He does both.

Again the issue is not that God does all these things, the issue is in how He accomplishes them. To the degree He created autonomous ability in nature and in man, then all your verses support my view.

Now lets back up to my example of the arrow shot. You were right and I was wrong, it is reasonable to conclude God intervened and deterministically controlled the flight of that arrow based on fulfilling prophecy.

Case reopened?

 

[Skandelon]

I gave you the finest defintion for "decree" known to man right out of the gate.

That STATEMENT defined your position using the word "ordain" in place of the word "decree" which is also remained undefined throughout the course of our discussion.

That you erroneously think that Confessions do not define theological terms, which is a notion of the highest degree of absurdity imaginable, is not my fault.

Sometimes confessions do provide supplements which define various terms, but the ones you have given only use the terms in the manner you have used them and do so without explanation or definition. What does it mean for God to decree the Fall of man?

Answering that by saying, "God ordains the Fall of Man," is not sufficient by anyone's standard and yet that is all you have done thus far.

 

[Robert Snow]

I am a very traditional Baptist and put very little faith in confessions. Sorry.

Ah but Luke does. If it isn't Calvin it's Spurgeon, if not one of these idols of his it's some outdated confession.

 

[Robert Snow]

If one creates a God that isn't scriptural then that is indeed false worship and idolatry...

I guess it depends on your perspective. This is exactly how I feel about Calvinism.

 

[quantumfaith]

You just can't help but try to fight with me, can you? I show you the bible is inerrant and try to make peace with you, and instead of being thankful for the info and accepting peace you just have to be abrasive. You can't just let it rest. You remind me of a labrador I once had.

You ARE kidding right? You tried to make peace and end a commentary statement with "I forgive your ignorance".

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I guess it depends on your perspective. This is exactly how I feel about Calvinism.

Well then you are wrong. As Spurgeon said "Calvinism is the gospel" Calvinism is nothing more than the bible in it's whole exegeted observing the law of non contradiciton.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

You ARE kidding right? You tried to make peace and end a commentary statement with "I forgive your ignorance".

Of course not. We're all adults. We should all know that ignorance is a human trait. He is ignorant of the bible's perfection that is a must because of who the author is. I forgive him and hope he does better in the future.

 

[Skandelon]

Of course not. We're all adults. We should all know that ignorance is a human trait. He is ignorant of the bible's perfection that is a must because of who the author is. I forgive him and hope he does better in the future.

It's okay, I forgive your ignorance on how to make peace with others effectively. It is all good. :love2: