Randomness in the Bible?

[Crabtownboy]

***
I find it most interesting how people will search the Bible for verses to pull out that support their own ideas. This is a misuse of the Bible. I fear this discussion on randomness, which seems to have boiled down to a sticky mess of insults, is one of them.

1. We see that random does not really mean random. [This is quite a liberal interpretation of the verse about the archer, the arrow and the king.]

2. We find the supposition that if it isn't in the Bible it is not true ... especially if it concerns an idea that I do not like. Sounds like a teenager doesn't it?

3. We see the belief that God must act or have acted in accordance with my own understanding.

The second idea, if it is not in the Bible ......., makes me think of radical Moslems, that all answers are in the Koran and if you come up with something that does not fit my belief you are a heretic.

My friends, there are thousands upon thousands of facts that are facts that are not mentioned in the Bible.

The Bible does not mention random numbers. But, random numbers are very important in a number of disciplines.

The Bible does not mention the circulation of the blood, but that does not mean that blood does not circulate.

The Bible does not say that everything, even you and me and the chair you are sitting on, has a frequency. But just because this is not mentioned in the Bible does not mean it is not true.

The Bible makes no mention of electricity, black holes, electron microscopes, automobiles, nuclear energy, pool tables, etc., etc.

We could go on and on and on. Is God's character impacted negatively by any of this. No, not at all ... and if God has chosen to use randomness in one way or another that, also, does not impact on his character.

For us to presume that God must act in accordance with our own understanding it to be very arrogant. To do so it to make God in our own image ... our own understanding. Where is your faith to let God be God? Do not try to fit God into the pigeonhole of your own understanding. He won't fit! Stand back! Be humble! Ask God to teach you and realize that none of us will ever have full understanding. This alone should keep us humble enough to not make pronouncements of "God had to do it ......... way."

One of the most common accusations made by atheists and agnostics is the Christians ... indeed any religious person makes God in their own image. There is always a danger of doing that, especially when we insist that God must act or must have acted in accordance with my own understanding.

To allow God to be God is dangerous as he may show you new truths whereby you have to give up long held and greatly loved opinions.

Blessings!

 

[Robert Snow]

Well then you are wrong. As Spurgeon said "Calvinism is the gospel" Calvinism is nothing more than the bible in it's whole exegeted observing the law of non contradiciton.

Although I have books by Spurgeon, why should I care Spurgeon's opinion. He is just a man. I don't put these dead Calvinists on the pedestal that you do evidently. I still say that Calvinism is wrong to the point of being dangerous to the Gospel.

 

[quantumfaith]

***
I find it most interesting how people will search the Bible for verses to pull out that support their own ideas. This is a misuse of the Bible. I fear this discussion on randomness, which seems to have boiled down to a sticky mess of insults, is one of them.

1. We see that random does not really mean random. [This is quite a liberal interpretation of the verse about the archer, the arrow and the king.]

2. We find the supposition that if it isn't in the Bible it is not true ... especially if it concerns an idea that I do not like. Sounds like a teenager doesn't it?

3. We see the belief that God must act or have acted in accordance with my own understanding.

The second idea, if it is not in the Bible ......., makes me think of radical Moslems, that all answers are in the Koran and if you come up with something that does not fit my belief you are a heretic.

My friends, there are thousands upon thousands of facts that are facts that are not mentioned in the Bible.

The Bible does not mention random numbers. But, random numbers are very important in a number of disciplines.

The Bible does not mention the circulation of the blood, but that does not mean that blood does not circulate.

The Bible does not say that everything, even you and me and the chair you are sitting on, has a frequency. But just because this is not mentioned in the Bible does not mean it is not true.

The Bible makes no mention of electricity, black holes, electron microscopes, automobiles, nuclear energy, pool tables, etc., etc.

We could go on and on and on. Is God's character impacted negatively by any of this. No, not at all ... and if God has chosen to use randomness in one way or another that, also, does not impact on his character.

For us to presume that God must act in accordance with our own understanding it to be very arrogant. To do so it to make God in our own image ... our own understanding. Where is your faith to let God be God? Do not try to fit God into the pigeonhole of your own understanding. He won't fit! Stand back! Be humble! Ask God to teach you and realize that none of us will ever have full understanding. This alone should keep us humble enough to not make pronouncements of "God had to do it ......... way."

One of the most common accusations made by atheists and agnostics is the Christians ... indeed any religious person makes God in their own image. There is always a danger of doing that, especially when we insist that God must act or must have acted in accordance with my own understanding.

To allow God to be God is dangerous as he may show you new truths whereby you have to give up long held and greatly loved opinions.

Blessings!

Great Post :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Luke2427]

***
I find it most interesting how people will search the Bible for verses to pull out that support their own ideas. This is a misuse of the Bible. I fear this discussion on randomness, which seems to have boiled down to a sticky mess of insults, is one of them.

1. We see that random does not really mean random. [This is quite a liberal interpretation of the verse about the archer, the arrow and the king.]

Wrong. God killed Ahab. He said he would. Do you deny it? Do you deny that it is appointed unto man once to die? Do you deny that God planned and purposed to kill Ahab just the way he did that day?

If not, then you must yield that his death that day was not random at all. I have shown you what it means to be random and if God arranged it beforehand, which the Bible clearly shows that he did, if God had a purpose for it, which he obviously did, then it CANNOT by definition be "random".

It is sheer stubbornness to argue this point any further.

That the death of Ahab was not chance on God's part is clearer than the Virgin Birth.

2. We find the supposition that if it isn't in the Bible it is not true ... especially if it concerns an idea that I do not like. Sounds like a teenager doesn't it?

3. We see the belief that God must act or have acted in accordance with my own understanding.

The second idea, if it is not in the Bible ......., makes me think of radical Moslems, that all answers are in the Koran and if you come up with something that does not fit my belief you are a heretic.

My friends, there are thousands upon thousands of facts that are facts that are not mentioned in the Bible.

The Bible does not mention random numbers. But, random numbers are very important in a number of disciplines.

The Bible does not mention the circulation of the blood, but that does not mean that blood does not circulate.

The Bible does not say that everything, even you and me and the chair you are sitting on, has a frequency. But just because this is not mentioned in the Bible does not mean it is not true.

The Bible makes no mention of electricity, black holes, electron microscopes, automobiles, nuclear energy, pool tables, etc., etc.

We could go on and on and on. Is God's character impacted negatively by any of this. No, not at all ... and if God has chosen to use randomness in one way or another that, also, does not impact on his character.

Wrong again. I never purported that presupposition. I never stated that if you cannot show it in the Bible then it must not be so.

I am simply asking if you can. If you cannot support it with Scripture, then fine. That does not mean that it is not so. I just want to know if you can support this notion that God built a universe in which billions of things happen every day apart from his determinate counsel strictly by chance. If you cannot support this notion with Scripture, it does not necessarily mean that it is not so.

But if I can show you from Scripture that God has determined EVERYTHING that will happen in eternity past, and you cannot provide any contradictory passages then you must yield that chance does not exist on God's part.

For us to presume that God must act in accordance with our own understanding it to be very arrogant. To do so it to make God in our own image ... our own understanding. Where is your faith to let God be God? Do not try to fit God into the pigeonhole of your own understanding. He won't fit! Stand back! Be humble! Ask God to teach you and realize that none of us will ever have full understanding. This alone should keep us humble enough to not make pronouncements of "God had to do it ......... way."

When you purport that God is a God who built a universe that functions largely by chance without any Scriptural support while denying Scripture that teaches the contrary, YOU, sir, are the one who is creating a god in his own image.

One of the most common accusations made by atheists and agnostics is the Christians ... indeed any religious person makes God in their own image. There is always a danger of doing that, especially when we insist that God must act or must have acted in accordance with my own understanding.

To allow God to be God is dangerous as he may show you new truths whereby you have to give up long held and greatly loved opinions.

I agree. I hope you will heed your advice here.

 

[Rippon]

I still say that Calvinism is wrong to the point of being dangerous to the Gospel.

Yeah,yeah,yeah, blah,blah,blah...

We know your old recording "Calvinism is a false gospel.It's cult-like.Calvinists worship John Calvin.They are robots"...on and on and on.Of course long ago you said you would stop your campaign only to do it with more force and vigor than ever. You need to calm yourself. You need to read the Bible more and obey its injunctions. You need to be factual and tell the truth. You to need to study Church History and get familiar with things that elude you presently.

Don't you ever get tired of saying untrue,absurd things? Can you ever get specific and tell us what you think is so evil about our understanding of the Bible? Because that's what it's about.

The gospel is good news. Christ has come in the flesh as the God/Man. He came to die and shed His blood for His own. There is no hope in any other but Him. People need to repent of their sins and believe that Christ alone is the way to life eternal. There is no other name under heaven whereby we can be saved. No one else has the power or authority to forgive sins. Christ alone is the sin-bearer.

That's the gospel in brief. Is that evil or dangerous? Does it do damage to the cause of Christ? We are to tell the good news of the gospel to everyone without restriction. We,as believers, are to obey the Great Commission.We are to have a burden for the lost. If we are not caring for the souls around us -- that is possibly a sign of an unregenerate state.

Do you disagree with any of the above? If so,what in particular bothers you?

You have to cease just attacking an imaginary target that you label Calvinism. You specialize in making drive-by attacks as if that promotes something positive. But you are only embarrassing yourself and sinning in the process.

 

[Luke2427]

Yeah,yeah,yeah, blah,blah,blah...

We know your old recording "Calvinism is a false gospel.It's cult-like.Calvinists worship John Calvin.They are robots"...on and on and on.Of course long ago you said you would stop your campaign only to do it with more force and vigor than ever. You need to calm yourself. You need to read the Bible more and obey its injunctions. You need to be factual and tell the truth. You to need to study Church History and get familiar with things that elude you presently.

Don't you ever get tired of saying untrue,absurd things? Can you ever get specific and tell us what you think is so evil about our understanding of the Bible? Because that's what it's about.

The gospel is good news. Christ has come in the flesh as the God/Man. He came to die and shed His blood for His own. There is no hope in any other but Him. People need to repent of their sins and believe that Christ alone is the way to life eternal. There is no other name under heaven whereby we can be saved. No one else has the power or authority to forgive sins. Christ alone is the sin-bearer.

That's the gospel in brief. Is that evil or dangerous? Does it do damage to the cause of Christ? We are to tell the good news of the gospel to everyone without restriction. We,as believers, are to obey the Great Commission.We are to have a burden for the lost. If we are not caring for the souls around us -- that is possibly a sign of an unregenerate state.

Do you disagree with any of the above? If so,what in particular bothers you?

You have to cease just attacking an imaginary target that you label Calvinism. You specialize in making drive-by attacks as if that promotes something positive. But you are only embarrassing yourself and sinning in the process.

Since quantum only comments positively about the rantings of those with no nameable theology I will do this for him:

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
_________________________________

 

[Crabtownboy]

Wrong. God killed Ahab. He said he would. Do you deny it? Do you deny that it is appointed unto man once to die? Do you deny that God planned and purposed to kill Ahab just the way he did that day?

The Bible does not say Ahab was killed at random. It says the archer shot at random.

Wrong again. I never purported that presupposition. I never stated that if you cannot show it in the Bible then it must not be so.

By demanding proof texts ... which were shown but which you do not accept you did exactly that.

I am simply asking if you can. If you cannot support it with Scripture, then fine. That does not mean that it is not so. I just want to know if you can support this notion that God built a universe in which billions of things happen every day apart from his determinate counsel strictly by chance. If you cannot support this notion with Scripture, it does not necessarily mean that it is not so.

Arguing with two scripture verses each is fruitless and as we see verses can be in all honesty interpreted differently by different well meaning people.

But if I can show you from Scripture that God has determined EVERYTHING that will happen in eternity past, and you cannot provide any contradictory passages then you must yield that chance does not exist on God's part.

That brings up some very difficult questions. See my new thread on Satan. I am not coming down hard on either side. I am seeking rational answers to help move me one way or the other. My questions are informational and I am looking for rational replies

When you purport that God is a God who built a universe that functions largely by chance without any Scriptural support while denying Scripture that teaches the contrary, YOU, sir, are the one who is creating a god in his own image.

I do not believe I have ever said that. But if it does it is all right with me as God did it and I never presume to tell God how he must act or have acted in the past.

Let's say you are right and everything is preordained and let's say that randomness is built into the system by God. It changes nothing. It only means that God built randomness into the system. But, as I said above, it does raise some very difficult questions about the character of God.

Did he? Didn't he? We can ask when we are in heaven.

 

[quantumfaith]

Yeah,yeah,yeah, blah,blah,blah...

We know your old recording "Calvinism is a false gospel.It's cult-like.Calvinists worship John Calvin.They are robots"...on and on and on.Of course long ago you said you would stop your campaign only to do it with more force and vigor than ever. You need to calm yourself. You need to read the Bible more and obey its injunctions. You need to be factual and tell the truth. You to need to study Church History and get familiar with things that elude you presently.

Don't you ever get tired of saying untrue,absurd things? Can you ever get specific and tell us what you think is so evil about our understanding of the Bible? Because that's what it's about.

The gospel is good news. Christ has come in the flesh as the God/Man. He came to die and shed His blood for His own. There is no hope in any other but Him. People need to repent of their sins and believe that Christ alone is the way to life eternal. There is no other name under heaven whereby we can be saved. No one else has the power or authority to forgive sins. Christ alone is the sin-bearer.

That's the gospel in brief. Is that evil or dangerous? Does it do damage to the cause of Christ? We are to tell the good news of the gospel to everyone without restriction. We,as believers, are to obey the Great Commission.We are to have a burden for the lost. If we are not caring for the souls around us -- that is possibly a sign of an unregenerate state.

Do you disagree with any of the above? If so,what in particular bothers you?

You have to cease just attacking an imaginary target that you label Calvinism. You specialize in making drive-by attacks as if that promotes something positive. But you are only embarrassing yourself and sinning in the process.

You know good and well Robert agrees with this and you know full well his disagreement and misgivings regarding reformed theological positions. In the same breath you seek to chastise his critical position with respect to yours and attempt to insinuate that Robert had not even an intuitive understanding of Your theological position.

 

[quantumfaith]

The Bible does not say Ahab was killed at random. It says the archer shot at random.




By demanding proof texts ... which were shown but which you do not accept you did exactly that.



Arguing with two scripture verses each is fruitless and as we see verses can be in all honesty interpreted differently by different well meaning people.



That brings up some very difficult questions. See my new thread on Satan. I am not coming down hard on either side. I am seeking rational answers to help move me one way or the other. My questions are informational and I am looking for rational replies



I do not believe I have ever said that. But if it does it is all right with me as God did it and I never presume to tell God how he must act or have acted in the past.

Let's say you are right and everything is preordained and let's say that randomness is built into the system by God. It changes nothing. It only means that God built randomness into the system. But, as I said above, it does raise some very difficult questions about the character of God.

Did he? Didn't he? We can ask when we are in heaven.

In fact NNE has implied or said that the universe is governed completely and only by chance, if that is so, God would in fact be irrelevant. Which even "no name theology" folks like myself dont assert.

 

[Rippon]

You know good and well Robert agrees with this and you know full well his disagreement and misgivings regarding reformed theological positions. In the same breath you seek to chastise his critical position with respect to yours and attempt to insinuate that Robert had not even an intuitive understanding of Your theological position.

Robert said that Calvinism is dangerous to the Gospel. I am a Calvinist. I summarized what the Gospel entails. I asked him what proplems he had with my position. He offers nothing but the same old inane charges against some mythical thing he calls Calvinism. He attacks it repeatedly. While I and the rest of the real Calvinists on the BB scratch our heads and wonder why this guy goes on his incessant rants and attributes evil to our beliefs.

I do indeed wonder what he thinks we believe about the Gospel. That's why I did my summary --to disabuse him of his misrepresentations.

So,I will ask again Robert: Why is Calvinism dangerous to the Gospel of the grace of God in the Person of Christ Jesus?

 

[sag38]

I'm reminded of history when Benjamin Franklin invented the lightening rod. The Puritans rejected them. If your house was struck by lightening then it was an act of God. Who were they to put up a lightening rod to avert God's judgment? If your house was stuck by lightening and caught on fire the local fire brigade would come out but only to protect the next door structures. The house struck by lightening was allowed to burn.

 

[webdog]

Well then you are wrong. As Spurgeon said "Calvinism is the gospel" Calvinism is nothing more than the bible in it's whole exegeted observing the law of non contradiciton.

Spurgeon is not the authority. The Gospel is salvation by grace through faith, not the theology that tries to explain it. It is mighty arrogant to claim absolute truth on the mechanics involved in salvation.

 

[webdog]

Since quantum only comments positively about the rantings of those with no nameable theology I will do this for him:

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
_________________________________

Complete lie. He has given thumbs up on some of your agnostic fatalism posts as well.

 

[Luke2427]

In fact NNE has implied or said that the universe is governed completely and only by chance, if that is so, God would in fact be irrelevant. Which even "no name theology" folks like myself dont assert.

No one has said that anyone, even these with nameless theology, is arguing that the universe is governed ONLY by chance.

But those of you with this new nameless theology that you have made up do admit that many if not MOST things, if not the VAST MAJORITY of things that happen in your universe occur at random and by chance.

Since God never intended for their to be sin and since God has no ultimate cause for it and since sin is ONLY the result of the free will decisions of man which he just HAPPENED (by chance) to make and since BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS of sins are committed each day- then according to this new, weird nameless theology MUCH of what takes place on this earth every day is RANDOM.

Add to that that you do not believe that God is ultimately behind natural disasters and suffering and what are you left with???

I'll tell you: A world barely even GOVERNED by God much less Sovereignly ruled over.

At the very least you have to confess that you believe that MOST of what happens every day in this world God never WANTED to happen and it happens by chance.

Horrific.

 

[Luke2427]

Spurgeon is not the authority. The Gospel is salvation by grace through faith, not the theology that tries to explain it. It is mighty arrogant to claim absolute truth on the mechanics involved in salvation.

Right- but this new nameless theology that you espouse does not seem to understand the concept of grace at all. Therefore, it cannot have a real grasp on the Gospel. Folks in this new, weird, recently made-up theology are saved in SPITE of their version of the Gospel.

 

[Luke2427]

I'm reminded of history when Benjamin Franklin invented the lightening rod. The Puritans rejected them. If your house was struck by lightening then it was an act of God. Who were they to put up a lightening rod to avert God's judgment? If your house was stuck by lightening and caught on fire the local fire brigade would come out but only to protect the next door structures. The house struck by lightening was allowed to burn.

You need to site this.

 

[webdog]

Right- but this new nameless theology that you espouse does not seem to understand the concept of grace at all. Therefore, it cannot have a real grasp on the Gospel. Folks in this new, weird, recently made-up theology are saved in SPITE of their version of the Gospel.

So...if my theology is nameless, what do you call your agnostic, fatalistic, hyper-leaning mumbo jumbo? Surely not calvinism!

Welcome to the nameless theology crowd!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[webdog]

Right- but this new nameless theology that you espouse does not seem to understand the concept of grace at all. Therefore, it cannot have a real grasp on the Gospel. Folks in this new, weird, recently made-up theology are saved in SPITE of their version of the Gospel.

The Apostle Paul held to this same nameless theology...will you also accuse him of not understanding grace?

Not sure how someone who cannot simply define basic phrases like ordain and decree can speak out on someone else not understanding an equally basic phrase like grace.

I know you think you are quite glib in trying to insult us, but I will gladly side with the truth even if it doesn't have a "name".

 

[Crabtownboy]

Right- but this new nameless theology that you espouse does not seem to understand the concept of grace at all. Therefore, it cannot have a real grasp on the Gospel. Folks in this new, weird, recently made-up theology are saved in SPITE of their version of the Gospel.

Please elaborate on this for me. I see no connection between the possibility of random events and God's grace.

 

[Skandelon]

Since God never intended for their to be sin and since God has no ultimate cause for it and since sin is ONLY the result of the free will decisions of man which he just HAPPENED (by chance) to make and since BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS of sins are committed each day- then according to this new, weird nameless theology MUCH of what takes place on this earth every day is RANDOM.

Seems as if you are making the argument that any thing not under the direct agency of God's decree is "random." I think even Edwards and others would place some things under the permissive will of God...i.e. that which he allows, disposes events etc

Sorry, it just hard to understand since you still haven't defined the terms "ordain" or "decree" yet.