Rantings about Relevancy in Worship...

[DanielFive]

It has nothing to do with music. There are judgmental people on both sides of the coin. It's a heart issue, not a music issue.

If music isn't the PROBLEM why are you promoting a new type of music as the SOLUTION?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Molly:
And...have you ever thought that *new* music may not be the answer,maybe,just maybe it is a hard heart problem with this so called generation X or Y...why cater to what they think they want and really give them what they really need?

Molly

The burden of proof is on you to show that hymns are what they really "need." I would say that what they need is a relationship with Jesus Christ, not hymns. Jesus Christ is the one who can change hearts.

I wouldn't say that it is a heart problem. Believers in this generation are more likely to serve others, spend more time in worship, and are more likely to tell their friends about Jesus Christ than those from an older generation. All these have been shown through research done by George Barna.

Again, I suppose your burden of proof is two-fold: First, that their hearts are hard, and second, this manifests itself in their not liking hymns.

My questions for you are these: In what age group are you, and how much experience have you had in working with young Christians in this age group?

To answer that question: I am 24, and I've spent the last 6 years in youth ministry (That's right, I was a youth minister at the age of 18!)

 

[DanielFive]

Originally posted by Scott:

There is nothing that is wrong with hymns, per se. However, we are dealing with a culture - the Generation X, Y, and Internet - who quite simply cannot relate to hmyns that speak of God in what they consider a detached manner. Many of the hmyns are almost like telling each other how great God is. There is nothing wrong with that. However, this generation, more than those before, have an intrensic desire to connect.

That is why so much of the praise and worship material that is coming out (the good stuff - not the trite stuff) has the singer speaking the words to God. This generation longs to connect in that way in worship.

Scott,

If they have a real need and desire to connect maybe the solution would be to teach them to pray.

By the way Scott, I'm not completely over the hill yet, I'm 35 but I have teenage nieces and nephews who I can relate to. Also I am at college doing a degree course, in a class full of 20 year olds.

I know and have fellowship with many generation X Christians in my own and other churches. Many of them sing in Choirs and have no difficulty in relating to traditional hymns.

CCM in Church? In the words of the hymnwriter I'd rather have Jesus.

God Bless

Enda

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

It's all preference, is it not? If we want to get biblical, it is the heart, not the style.

Are hymns biblical? Is CCM? The only thing biblical is singing our praises to God...that's all we're told to do...oh yes...also praising him with those instruments listed.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by enda:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It has nothing to do with music. There are judgmental people on both sides of the coin. It's a heart issue, not a music issue.

If music isn't the PROBLEM why are you promoting a new type of music as the SOLUTION? </font>[/QUOTE]Because music isn't the solution to judgemental people. It really isn't. But what is true is this: Music creates an environment of worship - and I think you would agree with that.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by enda:
If they have a real need and desire to connect maybe the solution would be to teach them to pray.

But how can they pray to a God that is foreign to them? That's the crux of the music argument in my mind. People will use the method of worship that allows them to experience God and allow them to offer praise and worship to Him. For a large majority of the new generations, that worship method isn't the hymns of their parents and grandparents. It just isn't.

For this generation, worship is communication TO God about Who He is and His excellent works, as opposed to songs ABOUT Who God is and ABOUT His excellent works. That is the big difference.

By the way Scott, I'm not completely over the hill yet, I'm 35 but I have teenage nieces and nephews who I can relate to. Also I am at college doing a degree course, in a class full of 20 year olds.

And what kind of people are they? How do they think? Do you see any differences between their thought processes and yours? How do they view the world in general? Is there a difference there? Are they more optimistic or pessimistic than you were at that age?

I know and have fellowship with many generation X Christians in my own and other churches. Many of them sing in Choirs and have no difficulty in relating to traditional hymns.

Have you asked them about the choice of praise and worship or hymn singing? I would encourage you to get involved and begin discussion with them. And then go back and examine the statistics concerning the level of involvement that that generation has correlating with music styles. It may surprise you as to what you see. Read one of Leonard Sweet's well-documented and well-researched books for more information.

CCM in Church? In the words of the hymnwriter I'd rather have Jesus.

Then why sing hymns? Surely you are not saying that hymns=Jesus. Those who sing praise and worship are singing to God and are singing to Jesus Christ - whether you think so or not!

 

[DanielFive]

Scott,

You've raised an interesting point which I hadn't really thought about until now.

And what kind of people are they? How do they think? Do you see any differences between their thought processes and yours? How do they view the world in general? Is there a difference there? Are they more optimistic or pessimistic than you were at that age?


quote:
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I know and have fellowship with many generation X Christians in my own and other churches. Many of them sing in Choirs and have no difficulty in relating to traditional hymns.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have you asked them about the choice of praise and worship or hymn singing? I would encourage you to get involved and begin discussion with them. And then go back and examine the statistics concerning the level of involvement that that generation has correlating with music styles. It may surprise you as to what you see. Read one of Leonard Sweet's well-documented and well-researched books for more information.

I grew up as a RC and living in Northern Ireland I never had any social contact with born-again Christians or protestants who lived in different areas.

I find my young classmates very open to talking about God, much moreso than I was at their age, I don't know wheather this is because of their protestant upbriinging or wheather this generation is more open than mine.

Those whom I have spoken to at length are very aware that they need to be saved, they are not church-goers but they are at the 'I'll get saved when I'm older' stage.

There is one young Christian girl in the class who goes to a CCM church. She listens to CCM all the time and has a good relationship with the other students. Incidentally she is going to Bible college next year and feels that she is called to missionary work.

The trouble is, I find that her lifestyle doesn't stand up to her profession. Now please believe me that is not me judging the girl, I am very friendly with her and encourage her as much as I can. You see, to me the CCM brings with it all sorts of other things, she has posters of CCM stars posted above her desk in the same way as non-christian girls have all the boy-band pictures up. In talking to her and observing her over the last few months I am very aware that she has no clue about the concept of seperation.

In speaking privately to some of the other students I have found that they tend to look at her, and say 'she is no different to me'. Someone even said to me "she is no Christian, she thinks she is, but she's not". That is the sad truth of the situation, I find that the young people who I am witnessing to know more about what a Christian should be than this girl who is almost ready to start Bible college.

To me, her love for God seems to centre around this love of music, I can't see how it is enhancing her Christian walk in any way. She is a real contrast to the other young Christians I have encountered in my own Church.

You'll probably say that this is an isolated case, but in talking to other Christians about this I think she is somewhat typical of the young CCM fan.

Obviously, your experience will be different, could you give me some examples of how young people are changed inwardly and outwardly through your ministry. Something more than just turning up for the service every week or prefering CCM to ordinary contemporary music. Have you seen a lot of solid, lasting professions, and dramatic changes in individuals you have encountered?

God Bless

Enda

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by enda:
I find my young classmates very open to talking about God, much moreso than I was at their age, I don't know wheather this is because of their protestant upbriinging or wheather this generation is more open than mine.

This is because this generation is more "spiritual" than those before - not necessarily Christian, but more spiritual.

Those whom I have spoken to at length are very aware that they need to be saved, they are not church-goers but they are at the 'I'll get saved when I'm older' stage.

Describe more in detail how they "need to be saved."

There is one young Christian girl in the class who goes to a CCM church. She listens to CCM all the time and has a good relationship with the other students. Incidentally she is going to Bible college next year and feels that she is called to missionary work.

Then praise be to God!

The trouble is, I find that her lifestyle doesn't stand up to her profession. Now please believe me that is not me judging the girl, I am very friendly with her and encourage her as much as I can. You see, to me the CCM brings with it all sorts of other things, she has posters of CCM stars posted above her desk in the same way as non-christian girls have all the boy-band pictures up. In talking to her and observing her over the last few months I am very aware that she has no clue about the concept of seperation.

What else is there besides the CCM stars above her desk? What kind of posters are they? Provocative pictures?

Perhaps the reason she has no concept of separation is that she, like me and many, many other Christians don't buy into the concept. There are three types of ways we can interact with the world - First, we can completely separate from the culture - the view which you seem to espouse. Second, we can immerse ourselves in the culture. Thirdly, and I think the BIblical worldview mandates, is that we are to go change the culture. We must know the culture to do so, but we cannot "be like them." By showing Christ to them, they will see that our worldview is much more desired than that of the world. SO, when you say that she doesn't understand the concept of separation, the way you seem to define it, I would reply, "good for her."

In speaking privately to some of the other students I have found that they tend to look at her, and say 'she is no different to me'. Someone even said to me "she is no Christian, she thinks she is, but she's not". That is the sad truth of the situation, I find that the young people who I am witnessing to know more about what a Christian should be than this girl who is almost ready to start Bible college.

And what does the girl say about that? What are the things that cause others to say this? Is it because of the music? Or is it because she is not showing Christian love? Are the people saying this Christians or non-Christians?

To me, her love for God seems to centre around this love of music, I can't see how it is enhancing her Christian walk in any way. She is a real contrast to the other young Christians I have encountered in my own Church.

And you are sure that the only reason for this is contemporary Christian music? Can you prove a causal link?

You'll probably say that this is an isolated case, but in talking to other Christians about this I think she is somewhat typical of the young CCM fan.

There is a difference between a CCM fan and those who worship using modern praise and worship.

Obviously, your experience will be different, could you give me some examples of how young people are changed inwardly and outwardly through your ministry. Something more than just turning up for the service every week or prefering CCM to ordinary contemporary music. Have you seen a lot of solid, lasting professions, and dramatic changes in individuals you have encountered?

Chelsea is a 7th grader in my youth group. She came with three friends of hers. She was raised Roman Catholic. She was allowed to listen to basically whatever kind of music she wanted, save for things that were obscene. She never really liked going to church. I got to know her through several of the different events she came to, including our Sunday morning service, which is more traditional. The first time she came to our worship service, she looked aroudn with a little bit of unease. Worship to her meant something much different. As the songs continued, something within her happened. It was almost as if you could see the Holy Spirit working on her life. He was!

A month and a half later, she is now a member of our church and absolutely on fire for God, bringing her friends, some of whom show a similar reaction.

Her mother came last Wednesday, just to see what all the fuss was about. She wasn't sure what was happening that caused such an amazing change in her daughter. I preached on true worship. We then sang praise and worship songs. An amazing change happened as I watched Chelsea's mother. Afterwards, she came and asked if she could continue coming on Wednesday nights. She even made if for last night's service.

These are two real examples of the effect of praise and worship music. One changed life. Another being changed. The conduit was music, that just happened not to be a hymn.

Now, are these lasting? Time will tell. However, my own story, in a Cliff Notes version, I was saved as the HOly Spirit spoke to me over a song called "The Call." The lyrics said, "Still the call goes out, still the challenge sounds, come follow me." During those very lyrics, I heard the Spirit say as audibly as I have ever experienced Him, "Are you tired of playing games? Are you ready to lay your life down and accept me?" I did. My life was immediately and powerfully changed. I now am a minister to middle school students. I have 150 students who I am directly responsible for at my church. God has used me to powerfully change lives for his own glory.

My first position at a church as a youth minister, there were only 5 students who were faithful in attending. When I left, we averaged more than 30. Guess what music we used in our worship and when I led youth choir? And they continued to come - it wasn't just a brief committment. Two of them are now on the mission field.

At my church now, we are still experiencing amazing growth. Our worship service has doubled in size since August 2002, and guess what music we use?

I hope these examples have helped you see what praise and worship has helped God to accomplish in my ministry as a minster of the gospel.

 

[DanielFive]

Scott,

Describe more in detail how they "need to be saved."

Do you mean describe this to you, or are you giving me advice?

What else is there besides the CCM stars above her desk? What kind of posters are they? Provocative pictures?

Yes I consider them to be provocative, and they are interspersed with little fish symbols etc.

Perhaps the reason she has no concept of separation is that she, like me and many, many other Christians don't buy into the concept. There are three types of ways we can interact with the world - First, we can completely separate from the culture - the view you seem to espouse.

If I had more time on my hands I'd explain this fully.

Separate, from the greek Aphrizo, go look it up in a good Bible concordance/dictionary.

Second, we can immerse ourselves in the culture. Thirdly, and I think the BIblical worldview mandates, is that we are to go change the culture. We must know the culture to do so, but we cannot "be like them."

Thats the problem with your music. It is LIKE THIERS. Why can't you see that.

As Christians we have a choice, we can seek to shape the values of others or we can be influenced by others. For example, for many centuries the best art and even music was work that was produced to glorify God; this specifically Christian work was the standard for all other work.

Nowadays things are usually the other way around. Christians copy what the world is doing, and seldom have anything of worth to oppose the destructive suggestions of the popular artists of today.

We need believers who are willing to make a consious effort to express the all-comprehensive aspect of our faith. We need musicians who are prepared to influence their culture through music which is distinguishable from that of non-believers. That is not what the majority of Christian artists are doing, they are allowing themselves to be influenced and tainted by todays secular music trends.

Of course, the Lord can still use them to the salvation of others, but it is definitely not a method of reaching the lost that God has recommended.

SO, when you say that she doesn't understand the concept of separation, the way you seem to define it, I would reply, "good for her."

No comment.

And what does the girl say about that? What are the things that cause others to say this? Is it because of the music? Or is it because she is not showing Christian love? Are the people saying this Christians or non-Christians?

The people are non-Christians, they base this on all aspects of her life I guess.

And you are sure that the only reason for this is contemporary Christian music? Can you prove a causal link?

I didn't say that CCM was the ONLY reason, I have no doubt that the teaching ministry in her CCM Church is inadequate.

These are two real examples of the effect of praise and worship music. One changed life. Another being changed. The conduit was music, that just happened not to be a hymn

The conduit was the Holy Spirit using the Word to convict.

During those very lyrics, I heard the Spirit say as audibly as I have ever experienced Him, "Are you tired of playing games? Are you ready to lay your life down and accept me?" I did.

Praise God for your conversion. It seems like an interesting story. When you say you heard the Spirit audibly, what kind of voice had He, did He speak with an accent, for example. I'd be interested to hear more about this, I've never come across anyone who has had such an experience.
(I'm not doubting you by the way, I'm just curious)

I pray that the Lord will use you greatly in your ministry of the Gospel.

God Bless

Enda

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by enda:
Do you mean describe this to you, or are you giving me advice?

I'm just wondering, because part of me thinks that if they truly understood the need to be saved, they would accept the gift of salvation. What do they say about the "need to be saved?"

Yes I consider them to be provocative, and they are interspersed with little fish symbols etc.

Interesting. Do you remember off hand which groups they are?

If I had more time on my hands I'd explain this fully.

Separate, from the greek Aphrizo, go look it up in a good Bible concordance/dictionary.

Aphrizo appears in nine verses. The first two, found in Matthew speaks of God separating the godly from the ungodly at the judgement.

Luke 6:22 talks about how we are to be blessed when others hate us.

Acts 13:2 talks about Paul and Barnabus who were separated for mission work. Romans 1:1 and Galatians 1:15 uses the word in the same manner.

Acts 19:9 speaks of the apostles who were disbursed.

I Corinthians 6:17 is in the context of marriage. We are to separate ourselves in the context of not being married to an unbeliever. How do we know that this isn't talking about befriending? We merely look at the example of Jesus Christ and the company he kept.

Galatians 2:12 speaks of James separating himself, and Paul, a few verses later says that those who did so did not walk "uprightly according to the truth of the gospel."

So, if there is a message of separation in the gospel, it must be outside of the word aphrizo.

Thats the problem with your music. It is LIKE THIERS. Why can't you see that.

The music is, just like hymn music is just like that of the Mormons. The words certainly are not like what is out there in the secular world, at least the type of music that I am defending. That is the difference.

As Christians we have a choice, we can seek to shape the values of others or we can be influenced by others. For example, for many centuries the best art and even music was work that was produced to glorify God; this specifically Christian work was the standard for all other work.

And praise and worship music is designed to do just that - shape the values of others. The notes and rhythm of music is benign - it is the message foudn within the music that shows whether it is made to influence or just to copy.

Nowadays things are usually the other way around. Christians copy what the world is doing, and seldom have anything of worth to oppose the destructive suggestions of the popular artists of today.

Perhaps you are not listening to the right music. Might I suggest groups like Chris Tomlin and David Crowder Band?

We need believers who are willing to make a consious effort to express the all-comprehensive aspect of our faith. We need musicians who are prepared to influence their culture through music which is distinguishable from that of non-believers. That is not what the majority of Christian artists are doing, they are allowing themselves to be influenced and tainted by todays secular music trends.

There are those who do so, and I completely disagree with them. But you should not lump all the non-hymn singing artists or groups together, because i think if you took a step back and had a good look, you would see that many of your fears are unfounded.

Of course, the Lord can still use them to the salvation of others, but it is definitely not a method of reaching the lost that God has recommended.

That's just it - you haven't shown using the SCripture how your method has been recommended, while mine has not.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> SO, when you say that she doesn't understand the concept of separation, the way you seem to define it, I would reply, "good for her."

No comment.</font>[/QUOTE]As I showed earlier, the idea of separation is conspicuously absent from the New Testament. In fact, we see Jesus, Phillip, and Paul doing the exact opposite! Going to the places others scoffed at, speaking the language of the non-believers, and doing things that the religious people of the time said was "unclean."

The people are non-Christians, they base this on all aspects of her life I guess.

Have you addressed this with the girl? How could you use this as a ministry opportunity for the girl?

I didn't say that CCM was the ONLY reason, I have no doubt that the teaching ministry in her CCM Church is inadequate.

So, in chuches where the teaching is adequate, we don't see those who don't take the teaching and apply it? We cannot rule out that perhaps she is hearing the right things, but she is not doing them, correct? I mean, to be fair?

The conduit was the Holy Spirit using the Word to convict.

Through music.

Praise God for your conversion. It seems like an interesting story. When you say you heard the Spirit audibly, what kind of voice had He, did He speak with an accent, for example. I'd be interested to hear more about this, I've never come across anyone who has had such an experience.
(I'm not doubting you by the way, I'm just curious)

I guess it was a whisper. I just *knew*. Perhaps it was the voice that spoke to my heart, not my ears. But I knew immediately that i had been spoken to by the Spirit of God. Clearly. Succinctly. Forcefully. Yet, lovingly.

I pray that the Lord will use you greatly in your ministry of the Gospel.

And I appreciate that. It is my prayer that I be a good steward with the musical talents that He has given me.

 

[DanielFive]

So, if there is a message of separation in the gospel, it must be outside of the word aphrizo.

I'd be happy to discuss the doctrine of seperation with you elsewhere if you want to start another thread. But for the sake of time and clarity I'll leave it for now.

Suffice only to say your error stems from this comment:

I Corinthians 6:17 is in the context of marriage. We are to separate ourselves in the context of not being married to an unbeliever. How do we know that this isn't talking about befriending? We merely look at the example of Jesus Christ and the company he kept.

As I say if you want to start a new thread lets start from here. 1Cor 6:17.

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Thats the problem with your music. It is LIKE THIERS. Why can't you see that.
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The music is, just like hymn music is just like that of the Mormons. The words certainly are not like what is out there in the secular world, at least the type of music that I am defending. That is the difference.

Who copied who, did the Christian church copy the mormons, or was it the other way around?

I'm not saying that the words are the same, I'm saying the music is the same, lets try to keep these two elements seperate. The music is the same, you are copying the style of the world.

The people are non-Christians, they base this on all aspects of her life I guess.
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Have you addressed this with the girl? How could you use this as a ministry opportunity for the girl?


quote:
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I didn't say that CCM was the ONLY reason, I have no doubt that the teaching ministry in her CCM Church is inadequate.
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So, in chuches where the teaching is adequate, we don't see those who don't take the teaching and apply it? We cannot rule out that perhaps she is hearing the right things, but she is not doing them, correct? I mean, to be fair?

Agreed, to be fair, I was harsh.

quote:
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The conduit was the Holy Spirit using the Word to convict.
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Through music.

No not through music, through the words which presumably were taken from scripture. The music had absolutely nothing to do with it. Consider this, seperate the music and the words. Could someone be saved through hearing the words being spoken? Yes. Could someone be saved through hearing the music without the words? No.

You will probably say that these young people wouldn't listen to the words if they were seperated from the music. That is no excuse to use this type of music, it amounts to evangelism by false pretences.

Remember the Jews required a sign (they wanted to see miracles) The greeks seek after wisdom (they wanted to hear Paul preach with worldly wisdom) Did he bow to their tastes and desires?, No, as he said, We preach Christ Crucified,(1Cor 1:22) the simple but glorious gospel message delivered in all its simplicity untainted by worldly tastes and standards. (you will find this fully explained in one of the articles I psosted on the other thread)

quote:
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Praise God for your conversion. It seems like an interesting story. When you say you heard the Spirit audibly, what kind of voice had He, did He speak with an accent, for example. I'd be interested to hear more about this, I've never come across anyone who has had such an experience.
(I'm not doubting you by the way, I'm just curious)
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I guess it was a whisper. I just *knew*. Perhaps it was the voice that spoke to my heart, not my ears. But I knew immediately that i had been spoken to by the Spirit of God. Clearly. Succinctly. Forcefully. Yet, lovingly.

So are you saying you heard it audibly, or are you not? I'm confused.

When you say "I just knew" what do you mean? How did you just know? How did you know you were hearing the Holy Spirit, how could you be sure it wasn't your imagination?

I'm not doubting that you had some kind of experience, but I would suggest that the experience you are describing was perhaps not quite as spectacular as you make it sound.

Is this an experience that you share with other young Christians, presumably so. Don't you feel that if you tell them that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to you (differently than by the Biblical method of the Holy Spirit using the Word of God to convict you of sin) that you run the risk of them expecting to experience this for themselves.
What happens when they don't? How discouraged and inadequate would this make them feel?

God Bless

Enda

 

[ScottEmerson]

Who copied who, did the Christian church copy the mormons, or was it the other way around?

I'm not saying that the words are the same, I'm saying the music is the same, lets try to keep these two elements seperate. The music is the same, you are copying the style of the world.

Then perhaps we must start a new thread on separation. And, to be fair, praise and worship is not copying the sounds of the world. It has its own sound that is not found in the world.

No not through music, through the words which presumably were taken from scripture. The music had absolutely nothing to do with it. Consider this, seperate the music and the words. Could someone be saved through hearing the words being spoken? Yes. Could someone be saved through hearing the music without the words? No.

So you admit that it is the words that can lead someone to worship?

Here is a yes or no question for you - a simple yes or no. Can God be glorified through praise and worship music?

You will probably say that these young people wouldn't listen to the words if they were seperated from the music. That is no excuse to use this type of music, it amounts to evangelism by false pretences.

Number one: Your first sentence is correct. Number two: How is it evangelism by false pretenses? Did not Paul, Phillip, and Jesus use the methods of the people they were speaking to to evangelize? Of course they did!

Remember the Jews required a sign (they wanted to see miracles) The greeks seek after wisdom (they wanted to hear Paul preach with worldly wisdom) Did he bow to their tastes and desires?, No, as he said, We preach Christ Crucified,(1Cor 1:22) the simple but glorious gospel message delivered in all its simplicity untainted by worldly tastes and standards. (you will find this fully explained in one of the articles I psosted on the other thread)

You take a great leap of logic in applying I Corinthians 1:22 to music. If this is true, are you saying that the poetic language of the hymns are simplistic? Are you saying that the music of the hymns is completely untainted by wordly tastes? What about the fact that many of the hymn tunes that we use originally came from secular sources? Does that make them tainted?

So are you saying you heard it audibly, or are you not? I'm confused.

To me, it was.

When you say "I just knew" what do you mean? How did you just know? How did you know you were hearing the Holy Spirit, how could you be sure it wasn't your imagination?

From my experience, and from talking to other Christians, Baptist or otherwise, they feel a clear moving of the Spirit. Sometiems it is God speaking through us through the Word. Other times it is a direction we should go. For example, often the Spirit compels me to witness to people I may see. I just "know" it's the Spirit.

I'm not doubting that you had some kind of experience, but I would suggest that the experience you are describing was perhaps not quite as spectacular as you make it sound.

I was once dead in my sins, and now I am alive. It's quite spectacular, I assure you! I hope all of us can say that about our conversion!

Is this an experience that you share with other young Christians, presumably so. Don't you feel that if you tell them that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to you (differently than by the Biblical method of the Holy Spirit using the Word of God to convict you of sin) that you run the risk of them expecting to experience this for themselves.

Do you not think that the Spirit can speak to us? Or are we only lead through the Word?

What happens when they don't? How discouraged and inadequate would this make them feel?

I've never had a child, youth, or adult say that this makes them feel inadequate. Ever. Does it make you feel inadequate?

On to start a new topic...

 

[DanielFive]

Here is a yes or no question for you - a simple yes or no. Can God be glorified through praise and worship music?

No.

So are you saying you heard it audibly, or are you not? I'm confused.
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To me, it was.

Right , so how did you know it was the voice of the Holy Spirit, how did it sound? I presume He spoke in English, did it sound anything like your own voice or was it distinctly different? If so, in what way?

From my experience, and from talking to other Christians, Baptist or otherwise, they feel a clear moving of the Spirit. Sometiems it is God speaking through us through the Word. Other times it is a direction we should go. For example, often the Spirit compels me to witness to people I may see. I just "know" it's the Spirit.

Yes, I've had these experiences but what you are describing is something completely different. The Spirit will speak to us through the Word or through providence.

I was once dead in my sins, and now I am alive. It's quite spectacular, I assure you! I hope all of us can say that about our conversion!

You are right any conversion is nothing less than a miracle, don't you think the 'hearing voices' element could be seen as an attempt to add something spectacular and unusual on top of that, an attempt to convince others that you are in some way recieving special favour in that God speaks audibly to you?

I've never had a child, youth, or adult say that this makes them feel inadequate. Ever. Does it make you feel inadequate?

Has anyone else in your group claimed a similar experience.

No I don't feel inadequate or in any way less spiritual than you. I seek nothing more than I recieve daily from the Holy Spirit, who could ask for more. However if Scripture taught that what you experienced was something real and something that should be sought after then of course I would be praying that I might also hear God speak, who wouldn't want to hear the voice of God audibly.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by enda:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Here is a yes or no question for you - a simple yes or no. Can God be glorified through praise and worship music?

No.</font>[/QUOTE]So let me make sure I understand you. Are you saying that God is not working through praise and worship music? Are you saying that there is no evidence whatsoever that praise and worship music is having no effect on these churches who are experiencing amazing growth, revival, and renewal?

I find that such an amazingly shallow answer, I honestly do not know what to say next. You really are saying that it is impossible for God to be glorified using praise and worship music?

Is this the perspective of the other hymn-only people here? Dr. Bob? Aaron? Molly?

 

[DanielFive]

Scott,

Obviously I was playing you at your own game. A one word answer, which you insisted upon is completely inadequate, it allows me no room for explanation, giving a categorical yes would obviously allow you to back me into a corner, credit me with a bit of intelligence.

God can be glorified in the lyrics of the songs. But yes I am saying that it is impossible to glorify God through music which is worldly.

And of course God can speak to people through P&W music. That doesn't mean anything. God can speak in many different ways, we cannot do evil that good may come of it.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by enda:
Scott,

Obviously I was playing you at your own game. A one word answer, which you insisted upon is completely inadequate, it allows me no room for explanation, giving a categorical yes would obviously allow you to back me into a corner, credit me with a bit of intelligence.

God can be glorified in the lyrics of the songs. But yes I am saying that it is impossible to glorify God through music which is worldly.

And of course God can speak to people through P&W music. That doesn't mean anything. God can speak in many different ways, we cannot do evil that good may come of it.

Then your answer should have been yes - praise and worship music can be used to glorify God. Now, it seems as though you are saying that praise and worship music is just downright evil.

This is what Masters says in his review of a new hymnbook that includes several praise hymns:

"In summary, this hymnbook is an act of great pastoral foolishness, because its spiritually destructive work in churches is certain, being evident even now.
It is an act of pastoral insensitivity and indifference, because it will cripple the young by destroying any sense of separation from the world, delivering them into the hands of secular culture.
It is an act of pastoral weakness, cringing from holding vital ground for the glory of the Lord, against the tide of worldliness.
It is a callously divisive act, because biblically oriented hearts will not be able to worship amidst these offensive secular sounds.
But above all, it is an act of compromise - a betrayal of a central biblical principle, historically long preserved, that distinctiveness and purity from the world must be maintained in worship.
This hymnbook is a disgrace to the evangelical cause, leading God's people into sin, and reflecting nothing but shame on its compilers. Its musical culture is nothing less than a desecration of true worship, and we pray to the Lord that by His grace and mercy, many will yet be moved to reject it."

I know what his answer to the question is.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by enda:
I am saying that it is impossible to glorify God through music which is worldly.

Can you please give a definition of "wordly music"?

What are the necessary requirements to create a worldy rhythm/melody?

Where does the sin occur in said "worldly music". In the performance? In the listening?

What exactly is the sin?

Can you provide Scripture to support the notion that music can in and of itself be moral or immoral?

 

[DanielFive]

Travelsong,

Much as I'd like to, I have not got the time to go over this ground again.

Enda

 

[Molly]

Scott,I am not a hymn only person...in fact we enjoy a lot of newer type songs...but...I do believe there is an excellence in hymns and anthems that more contemporary songs can not even touch in comparison. There is a difference,so I choose to like the more biblically in depth songs over the shallow emotional based songs.

Lyrics(words) matter greatly,but so does the vehicle of sounds,beats,notes that those words are carried through. You wouldn't want to sing about Christ's sufferings to a yankee doodle tune,would you? It must fit the Holiness of God and His character to be fitting for a corporate worship service.

I love many types of music...but,like I said before...discernment and discretion is key to keep things God-honoring.

I consider all hymns and anthem praise and worship...what is your definition of praise and worship? Why is that a new term for praising God....Does it only mean contemporary music? Why? I don't get the terminology.

Molly

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Molly:
[QB] Scott,I am not a hymn only person...in fact we enjoy a lot of newer type songs...but...I do believe there is an excellence in hymns and anthems that more contemporary songs can not even touch in comparison. There is a difference,so I choose to like the more biblically in depth songs over the shallow emotional based songs.

I don't like singing the shallow, emotionally-based songs, either. The praise and worship music that I refer to isn't that. Perhaps I could suggest some music for you to listen to in this area?

Lyrics(words) matter greatly,but so does the vehicle of sounds,beats,notes that those words are carried through. You wouldn't want to sing about Christ's sufferings to a yankee doodle tune,would you? It must fit the Holiness of God and His character to be fitting for a corporate worship service.

And those who worship using praise and worship do believe that the music that is produced does fit the holiness of God and His character.

I love many types of music...but,like I said before...discernment and discretion is key to keep things God-honoring.

I completely agree!

I consider all hymns and anthem praise and worship...what is your definition of praise and worship? Why is that a new term for praising God....Does it only mean contemporary music? Why? I don't get the terminology.

I think that praise and worship as far as a genre is a fairly new idea. Pretty much, praise and worship arose about 20 years ago. They are the "hymns" of the modern church - songs that are designed specifically for worship. I agree completely that hymns and anthems are praise and worship music, but not necessarily in the praise and worship genre.

Such songs as "Open our eyes, Lord," "I Love You, Lord," and "Majesty" are defined as praise and worship music, and were among the first ones out there. Maranatha! had a big hand in the development of this genre.