Rapture: hocus-pocus

[Ed Edwards]

Postrib, 12 May 03:46PM EDT:
"Just as nothing in Matthew 24:29-31 requires or even suggests that the first seven uses of "and" in that passage refer to seven different times, or that the eighth and ninth uses of "and" in that passage refer to two different times, so nothing requires or even suggests that the eighth use of "and" in that passage refers to a different time."

Postrib, 12 May 07:56PM EDT:
"Just as nothing in Matthew 24:29-31 requires or even suggests that the first seven uses of "and" in that passage refer to seven different times, or that the eighth and ninth uses of "and" in that passage refer to two different times, so nothing requires or even suggests that the eighth use of "and" in that passage refers to a different time.

Repeating yourself is not an effective way to use the cyberspace
paid for by the owner of this site.
Repeating yourself is not an effective use of my time.
Repeating yourself is not an effective use of your God
given talents.
Try finding a way to make your letters big and red,
then people might believe you.

Until then, we shall our polysendten "and" explanation
of Matthew 24 as PROOF POSITIVE that Jesus was describing
His pretribulation rapture/resurrection coming in Matthew 24:31.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Matthew 24 as PROOF POSITIVE that Jesus was describing His pretribulation rapture/resurrection coming in Matthew 24:31

HOW can you prove that Matt. 24:31 is 'pretrib gathering' while Christ does NOT saying, that He will come back BEFORE tribulation???

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Matthew 24 as PROOF POSITIVE that Jesus was describing His pretribulation rapture/resurrection coming in Matthew 24:31

HOW can you prove that Matt. 24:31 is 'pretrib gathering' while Christ does NOT saying, that He will come back BEFORE tribulation???

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen! </font>[/QUOTE]Per your request i'll show the proof again.
I risk getting it truncated, for i have
posted it many times, many places
IN CONTRADICTION TO THE RULES. Nevertheless,
if you are borrowing a computer, you
don't have time to search for it.

--------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc&gt

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.

 

[ballfan]

pol·y·syn·de·ton ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pl-snd-tn)
n.
The repetition of conjunctions in close succession for rhetorical effect, as in the phrase here and there and everywhere.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Late Greek polusundeton, from neuter of polusundetos, using many connectives : Greek polu-, poly- + Greek sundetos, bound together; see syndetic.]

[Download or Buy Now]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


polysyndeton

\Pol`y*syn"de*ton\, n. [NL., from Gr. poly`s many + ? bound together, fr. ? to bind together; ? with + ? to bind.] (Rhet.) A figure by which the conjunction is often repeated, as in the sentence, ``We have ships and men and money and stores.'' Opposed to asyndeton.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


polysyndeton

n : using several conjunctions in close succession, especially where some might be omitted (as in `he ran and jumped and laughed for joy')


Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

From dictionary.com

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by postrib:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> From the post in this thread made on May 19, 2004 09:25 AM EDT:
". . . the tribulation period judgements . . . "

Again, when we look at the scriptures, we see that none of the seven seals (Revelation 6) or the seven trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation is ever called a judgment. Only the seven vials (Revelation 16) are referred to as judgments (Revelation 15:4; 16:7), and they'll in no way be directed against the believers who will be on the earth (Revelation 16:15).
</font>[/QUOTE]Whether the word "judgement" is actually used in referring to seven seals is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand, just as whether the word "trinity" is used when discussing the Godhead. Do you actually believe the word judgement must be used for an event to be a judgement??

Revelation 6:12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Is this a judgement of God or not? Why or why not?
If I were the one that was hiding from the face of him that sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, I would consider myself being judged.
DHK

 

[Ed Edwards]

Nice, Bro Ballfan.

The rest of us have our on-line, empty, and
'black & white" sources also. Keep reading my
posts and you might fide some off-line, full,
and full color sources.

The first definition of polysyndeton is closest
for it mentions "for retorical effect."
What is the signifance of a retorical devise in
a prophetic utterance? Is it not to convey data
and hope to those who know the speaker?
Due to our victimization by the dumbing down
of America, we are to abandon our hope cause we
were not tought this retorical devise:
polysendenton?

I recall my 5th grade teacher saying "and you
are never, NEVER, ever to start a sentence with
'and' "

I recall my 7th grade teacher saying

"Try
not to find a preposition to end your
sentence with"

Seriously, my grade school teachers did not know
about retorical devises either. The dumbing
down

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Seriously, my grade school teachers did not know
about retorical devises either. The dumbing
down

I resemble that remark.

Mr Evans (Four more days 'till summer vacation!)

 

[Ed Edwards]

tee hee

If i remember right from my school marm
daze, the last day of school each May
is very much like the RAPTURE

(only for the school teacher the rapture
comes AFTER the TRIBULATION

)

 

[ballfan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Nice, Bro Ballfan.

The rest of us have our on-line, empty, and
'black & white" sources also. Keep reading my
posts and you might fide some off-line, full,
and full color sources.

The first definition of polysyndeton is closest
for it mentions "for retorical effect."
What is the signifance of a retorical devise in
a prophetic utterance? Is it not to convey data
and hope to those who know the speaker?
Due to our victimization by the dumbing down
of America, we are to abandon our hope cause we
were not tought this retorical devise:
polysendenton?

I recall my 5th grade teacher saying "and you
are never, NEVER, ever to start a sentence with
'and' "

I recall my 7th grade teacher saying

"Try
not to find a preposition to end your
sentence with"

Seriously, my grade school teachers did not know
about retorical devises either. The dumbing
down

I just posted the definition so everyone could see just what the word actually meant.

The use of the word "and" doesn't change the meaning of the passage except to reinforce what is said.

It just goes to show the weakness of this particular intrepretation of yours. If you only had a solid foundation but you don't.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Again, you probably missed the part
where millions of pretribs (the majority)
beleive that the Matthew 24:31 gathering
and the 2 Thessalonians 2:1 gathering
are the same but NOT the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection.

I.E. i don't need Matthew 24:31 nor 2 Thess 2:1
to prove the pretribulation rapture.
I was believing the pretribulation rapture
52 years ago. Some people said that if
there was a pretrib rapture, how come
it wasn't in John's Revelation? It is there,
by type in Revelation 4:1.
Others said how come Jesus didn't mention
the pretribulation rapture? I found the
pretrib rapture in Jesus'es Mount Olivet
Discurse (MOD) at Matthew 24:31.
All one needs is an understanding of
the polysendenton "and". My pastor was
talking about it once, probably in relation
to Genesis 1 where it is used.
But the Holy Spirit helped me see that
it was also applicable to all those
"and"s in Matthew 24. The guiding verse
is Matthew 24:3 where the disciples ask
questions of Jesus. I presume that
Jesus answered the questions in the order
asked, not in the order in which they would
transpire. Thus the pretribulation rapture
ends the Church Age (AKA: Gentile Age,
this present evil age, etc.)

 

[postrib]

Greetings in Jesus' name,

From the post in this thread by Ed Edwards made on May 21, 2004 10:54 PM EDT:
". . . Repeating yourself . . . "

I repeat a point only as often as I see a contrary point repeated.

From the post in this thread by Ed Edwards made on May 21, 2004 10:54 PM EDT:
". . . our polysyndeton 'and' explanation of Matthew 24 . . . "

In Matthew 24:29-31 there are nine and's. Nothing suggests that any one of them has a different meaning than the rest of them. All of them form the account describing what will happen at the second coming.

From the post in this thread by Ed Edwards made on May 21, 2004 10:54 PM EDT:
". . . pretribulation rapture . . . "

The rapture will be after the tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Mark 13:24-27; Matthew 24:29-31). No scripture requires a pretribulation rapture.

From the post in this thread by Ed Edwards made on May 24, 2004 08:15 AM EDT:
". . . In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus ask three questions . . . "

Again, Jesus is asked only two questions before His Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24:3
1. When shall these things be?
2. What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (or age)?

Mark 13:4
1. When shall these things be?
2. What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Luke 21:7
1. When shall these things be?
2. What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Regarding the second question, Matthew 24:27-31 refers to the same "coming of the Son of man" as Matthew 24:37-51. There's no third coming.

From the post in this thread by Ed Edwards made on May 24, 2004 08:15 AM EDT:
". . . church age . . . "

The church will be "throughout all ages" (Ephesians 3:21).

From the post in this thread by Ed Edwards made on May 24, 2004 08:15 AM EDT:
". . . gentile age . . . "

Luke 21:24 says Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, and Revelation 11:2 says Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles during the tribulation; therefore, the times of the Gentiles can't be fulfilled before the tribulation.

From the post in this thread by Ed Edwards made on May 24, 2004 08:15 AM EDT:
". . . age of grace . . . "

Christians in the tribulation will be under God's grace (Revelation 7:14).

From the post in this thread by DHK made on May 24, 2004 07:36 PM EDT:
". . . Whether the word 'judgement' is actually used in referring to seven seals is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand . . . "

The Bible doesn't require that any of the seven seals (Revelation 6) or seven trumpets (Revelation 8-9) is a judgment. It only requires that the seven vials (Revelation 16) are judgments (Revelation 15:4; 16:7), and they'll in no way be directed against the believers who will be on the earth (Revelation 16:15).

From the post in this thread by DHK made on May 24, 2004 07:36 PM EDT:
". . . just as whether the word 'trinity' is used when discussing the Godhead . . . "

While the Bible doesn't use the word "trinity" in reference to the Godhead, it does require that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three different persons at the same time (Matthew 3:16-17; 28:19; 1 John 5:7) while being one God (1 John 5:7; John 10:30; 1:1; 2 Corinthians 3:17).

From the post in this thread by DHK made on May 24, 2004 07:36 PM EDT:
". . . hiding from the face of him that sits on the throne . . . "

Revelation 6:16 refers to the face of the Father upon His throne in heaven (Matthew 18:10), whom the Lamb had just been distinguished from in Revelation 5:7. Revelation 6:16 is the hyperbole of terrified unbelievers who think they're going to die, as seeing the face of the Father means death for men (Exodus 33:20; 1 John 4:12).

From the post in this thread by DHK made on May 24, 2004 07:36 PM EDT:
". . . the wrath of the Lamb . . . "

The scriptures don't require that the sixth seal is really the wrath of the Lamb, for terrified unbelievers could be only thinking that it is (Revelation 6:17), just as the things which were sent against Job weren't really the wrath of God, even though Job thought that they were (Job 19:11). No one in heaven calls the seals (Revelation 6) or trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation wrath. They only call the vials of the tribulation (Revelation 16) wrath, and none of the vials will be directed against the believers who will be on the earth (Revelation 16:15).

From the post in this thread by Ed Edwards made on May 25, 2004 08:42 AM EDT:
". . . rapture . . . type in Revelation 4:1 . . . "

Revelation 4:1 isn't a type of the rapture of the church because no coming of Christ is there, the Apostle John remains in a mortal body, and he's taken all the way into heaven, while the rapture of the church will be at the coming of Christ, will change all believers into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-53), and will take them only as high as the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

The "come up hither" in Revelation 4:1 was spoken only to the Apostle John over 1900 years ago, and wasn't spoken to keep him from entering tribulation, for he's our companion in tribulation (Revelation 1:9). Similarly, the "come up hither" in Revelation 11:12 will be spoken only to the two witnesses, and won't be spoken to keep them from entering tribulation, for they'll be killed in the tribulation (Revelation 11:7-8).

From the post in this thread by Ed Edwards made on May 25, 2004 08:42 AM EDT:
". . . Jesus answered the questions in the order asked . . . "

In Matthew 24, Jesus answers the two questions asked in Matthew 24:3 (when, and what sign) at the same time, for Matthew 24:4-8 says in effect "when you see these signs the time is just beginning"; Matthew 24:9-28 says in effect "when you see these signs the time will get really bad, but still it won't be completed"; Matthew 24:29-31 says in effect "when you see these signs the time is over "; then Matthew 24:32-51 takes a step back and says in effect "look, you're going to know by all these signs when my coming is near, but don't get complacent thinking you have time to be wicked before I come."

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Not to belabor the obvious, but
Brother Postrib has offered no consistant
message reagarding salvation, the need for
salvation, the postribualtion only rapture,
or most any other subject.
All he has done is try to destroy my message
of hope for the future.

I would like to talk about the time
from the day of Pentacost, 33AD until
the start of the Tribulation period judgements.
Brother Postrib doesn't want to call
it "church age", "gentile age", or "age of Grace".

All of these are acceptable to me, even using
his scriptures. For "church age" means the
age in which one can enter the gentile church.
This age ends when the pretribulation rapture
takes place. The "church" does not end
when the "church age" ends, the church is
eternal, the church is the body of Christ,
the church is the bride of Christ.
The church never ends. The time in which the
church can be entered ends at the pretribulation
rapture. I do not wish to have to include
this paragraph in every use of "church age".
Until we have come common terms that both
of us agree with, we cannot even have a discussion.

Read the rules here before you answer this
paragraph. Which of the following images
of Salvation do you reject?

born again
adopted into the family of God
becoming a member of the body of Christ
becoming a member of the bride of Christ
redeemed

They are each vaild images in which the
Christ has taught us that salvation
is understood. ALL OF THEM AND MORE
are true.

Likewise for the time period in which we live.
After the pretribulation rapture the
time of saving Grace for gentiles may
be lifted, hense "age of Grace". If you
are a Gentile i recommend you find out how
to get yourself saved and what it means NOW,
tomorrow may be too late.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

millions of pretribs (the majority) believe that the Matthew 24:31 gathering and the 2 Thessaslonians 2:1 gathering are the same but NOT the pretribulation rapture/resurrection

That is the fact. High percent of pretribbers see Matthew 24:31 speaks of the gathering Jews, bring them back to their land after the tribulation, because they understand the context of Matt. 24:29-31 very clear. Same as posttribs understand Matt 24:29-31 very clear. Very rare of pretribbers who interpreting Matt 24:31 speaks of pretrib rapture/resurrection. Because most of them do not see the gathering of Matt 24:31 is before trib.

Ed, HOW can you be sure that you prove Matt 24:31 is pretrib rapture/resurrection, while Christ does NOT saying 'before tribulation'?

But the Holy Spirit helped me see that it was also applicable to all those "and"s in Matt 24

Whatsoever you saying, I respect you. Many Christians claim, the Holy Spirit guides them to understand the Scripture clear. Same as what I am saying of the Holy Spirit guides me while read and study the Scriptures.

Understand, many Christians have different methods of their studying the Bible in their experince, and they have different view and interpreting the scriptures. We all cannot be expect every Christian have the same mind, same interpreting. Everyone are different. But, when we get into heaven, there are same mind people. THere is no division among God's family in the heaven.

You often saying 2 Thess 2:1 - "and" into two comings. The problem is, 2 Thess 2:1 does not showing there is a gap time of seven years between rapture and coming. No way you can prove 2 Thess 2:1 into two comings of gap time, because Paul never saying of two comings or gap time either.

Same thing as what you saying of Titus 2:13. There is no gap time of seven year on two comings in Titus 2:13.

Our blessed hope is not talk about escape from the coming tribulation, it talks about our body all shall be changed into immortlaity for eternal life refer to Titus 1:2, 2:13; and 3:7. Our blessed hope shall be AT Christ's glorious appearing is Christ's coming.

Your logical or theory of two phases of Christ's coming in the Bible are flaws and fallacy.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DHK]

PostTrib:

". . . Whether the word 'judgement' is actually used in referring to seven seals is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand . . . "

The Bible doesn't require that any of the seven seals (Revelation 6) or seven trumpets (Revelation 8-9) is a judgment. It only requires that the seven vials (Revelation 16) are judgments (Revelation 15:4; 16:7), and they'll in no way be directed against the believers who will be on the earth (Revelation 16:15).

Your logic is flawed.
My Aerostar is not required to be a Ford. But that doesn't change the facts. It is a Ford whether you like it or not.
You say: "The Bible doesn't require the seals or trumpets to be judgements." But that doesn't change the facts. They are, whether you like it or not. By simple allegorization and opinion one cannot just toss more than half the book of Revelation out the window. There are 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials, and no reason whatsoever given not to consider each and every one of them as acts of judgement upon the earth and the inhabitants thereof. It is God unleashing His wrath against world full of iniquity, against the antichrist, the false proiphet, and all the world that has been deceived into following them. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the seals and trumpets are not judgements. Your use of the word "require" seems to be verging on a game of semantics.

". . . hiding from the face of him that sits on the throne . . . "

Revelation 6:16 refers to the face of the Father upon His throne in heaven (Matthew 18:10), whom the Lamb had just been distinguished from in Revelation 5:7. Revelation 6:16 is the hyperbole of terrified unbelievers who think they're going to die, as seeing the face of the Father means death for men (Exodus 33:20; 1 John 4:12).

Yes, when the sixth seal of judgement brode open these unbelievers were terrified it. It is true that no man can see God and live. Thus they cried out: Hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne. They would die immediately with just one glance at the face of God. No man can look at God and live. This they knew. "And from the Lamb that sits on the throne." They could well distinguish between the first and the second person of the triune Godhead. They knew of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world—the One who had paid the penalty for their sins, and yet they had rejected. At one time He offered His love as their Redeemer; now He was about to give them His wrath, and then a final judgement or sentencing. Is it any wonder that they were terrified when this seal of judgement was opening.

". . . the wrath of the Lamb . . . "

The scriptures don't require that the sixth seal is really the wrath of the Lamb, for terrified unbelievers could be only thinking that it is (Revelation 6:17), just as the things which were sent against Job weren't really the wrath of God, even though Job thought that they were (Job 19:11). No one in heaven calls the seals (Revelation 6) or trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation wrath. They only call the vials of the tribulation (Revelation 16) wrath, and none of the vials will be directed against the believers who will be on the earth (Revelation 16:15).

Languages such as Greek and English are composed of sentences, which are made up of words. Words have meanings. In the Book of Reveelation the word "wrath" is used no less than 13 times. Don't you think that 13 times wrath could actually mean wrath, instead of the imagination of wrath. Job was a believer. You are comparing apples to oranges. This is God's wrath being poured out upon a sinful world. The Scriptures do require that words have meaning. Again, your statement "The Scriptures don't require that…" is a game of semantics that borders on unbelief.
Example: The Scriptures don't require the death of Jesus to atone for our sin. That may be yours or soimeone's opionion. (I am not saying it is yours—I use it as an example). But the fact is the Scriptures do teach the death of Jesus atones for our sins. You can't pit unbiblical opinion against the clear teaching of God's Word.
Wrath means wrath. Judgement is judgement.
DHK

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Postrib,

You and me both believe Jesus will come again after the tribulation. I have no problem with you, what you believe on the timing of the rapture.

I have several things that I do not agree with you, what you interpreting verses.

First of all, you and I both believe, no believer shall suffer the wrath of God. Amen. The wrath of God is for to send unbelievers to everlasting punishment - fire, because of their unbelief, worship the Beast or receive the mark.

You saying the sixth seal is not require for the wrath of God. I disagree with you.

Please look at Rev. 6:12-15 describe of the cosmic disturbance. Do you know where the refer of Rev. 6:12-15 is? Rev. 6:12-15 refer to Matt. 24:29; and Mark 13:24-25.

I believe the first five of seven seals are already happening right now since Early Church. How does I know? There is comparing of Matt 24:4-14 and Rev. 6:2-11 both are fit together perfectly. Again, the first five of seven seals do not pour the wrath of God pour the saints since Early Church to today. Both unbelievers and believers are growing together over the world - Matt. 13:29-30 till the end of the world come. Then, when the end of the world comes, unbelievers shall be separate from the believers, send them into everlasting fire under the wrath of God at Christ's coming.

Rev. 6:15-17 tell us, when the world(uneblievers) shall SEE Christ coming in the clouds, they will flee hide somewhere from Christ's face. Because of His wrath shall send them to everlasting fire. Rev. 6:15-16 is same with Matt 24:30; and Rev. 1:7 both telling us, unbelievers shall be mourn/wail while they hide from Christ's face at His coming.

Postrib,

I know that you strongly believe the book of Revelation was written in chronological order. Before I used to believe it. But, now, I realize the book of Revelation was written like as retelling the events, cycles, and parallels.

Rev. 1:7- Christ's coming
Rev. 6:12-17 -Christ's coming
Rev. 11:15-19-Christ's coming
Rev. 14:14-20-Christ's coming
Rev. 16:15-16-Christ's coming
Rev. 19:11-21-Christ's coming
Rev. 20:9-Christ's coming

Does that mean there are seven comingS?

No. The book of Revelation shows us there are retelling and more details about Christ's coming.

Most pretribbers believe Revelation was written in chronological order same as you do. SOME posttribbers believe the book of Revelation was written in cycles, parallels. But, NOT only some posttribbers believe it. I already asked few pretrib pastors in person, what they think of Revelation. They told me, they are cycles, and retelling the events, also parallels too!!

Nearly every amills believe Revelation was written in parallels or cycles.

Amill doctrine seems complex to you and many pretribbers. Before I thought amill doctrine looks complex and false doctrine. Till 3 years ago, I studied amill doctrine, the more I learned from it, they are not complex, they study the Bible more deeper than premills do. To be honest with you, many reformers impress me that they study the Bible more deeper than average baptists do.

Sorry I am off the topic. But, I am trying to telling you about the book of Revelation. I hope that you will open your eye and heart to see the light from Revelation. I have been read and study Revelation repeat and repeat many times. Yet, I am still reading Revelation never stop till I die or Christ comes. I urge you to read Revelation repeat and repeat take your time till you will able to understand it more better.

There is NOT a single verse anywhere in the book of Revelation saying the wrath of God shall pour upon the saints. Amen. What the wrath of God for? Send people to everlasting fire for disobey, unbelief, worship the beast, or receive the mark - Rev. 14:9-11.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20-Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

DPT: "There is NOT a single verse anywhere in the
book of Revelation saying the wrath of God shall
pour upon the Saints."

I agree. But you need to explain then Rev 6:13-17.
It speaks that all humans will cry out for
death instead of facing the wrath of the Lamb.
Will the saints be crying out here with all
the sinners? I don't think so. The church age saints
will be GONE before the earthquake strikes.

BTW, nobody every argued with me when i showed
earthquake of Revelation 16:20 is probably 1,000 times
as intense as the earthquake of Revelation 6:14.
But your cyclic theory of Revelation demands these
two be the same exact earthquake.

 

[Ed Edwards]

DPT: //Ed, How can you be sure that you prove
Matt 24:31 is pretrib rapture/resurrection
while Christ does NOT saying "before Tribualtion"?//

If i sign real quick to you "car" and
"jump" are you going to jump or are you
going to ask for the car's make, model,
speed, and direction?

I have told you how to see Matthew 24:31-44
as predictive by Christ of
the pretribulation rapture/ressurrection
(End of the Church Age).

You know that because such a view is NOT
held by the majority of pretribs that
they have other ways to prove their
pretribulation rapture theories.

The truth does not need my help to sell
it nor your acceptance of it to be true.
Yet we should both be on the search
for the truth. Well i tell you now, the
truth is NOT some old saying, the truth
is the person of Jesus, the Messiah.

Nowhere does Jesus ever say a word about
velcro. But i wouldn't use anything else
to keep my shoe on my foot.

For 47 years as a Christian i sat around
listening to doubters say "Jesus never
said a word about the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection". Then one day in
probably 1999 it came to me like a message
from on high that Jesus did
speake of the pretribulation rapture
in his messages called the Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD). And that proof has
been shown above.

 

[postrib]

Greetings in Jesus' name,

From the post in this thread by Ed Edwards made on May 26, 2004 07:49 AM EDT:
". . . hope for the future . . . "

My purpose isn't to squelch any true hope that we as believers have in Christ, but only to dispel false hopes that aren't found in the Bible. Our true and blessed hope is the hope of eternal life (Titus 1:2; 2:13; 3:7; 1 Thessalonians 5:8; Romans 8:23-25; Acts 23:6), which will be fulfilled in Christ Himself (1 Timothy 1:1; John 14:6; Colossians 1:27), and which will be given to us at the very end (Matthew 24:13), at the revelation of Christ (1 Peter 1:13).

Going into the tribulation won't rob us of our hope for eternal life at the second coming, for tribulation and hope aren't mutually exclusive; rather, tribulation works patience, and patience experience, and experience hope (Romans 5:3-4), so that we can both rejoice in hope and be patient in tribulation (Romans 12:12), hoping firm unto the end (Hebrews 3:6; 6:11; compare Matthew 24:13), unto the revelation of Christ (1 Peter 1:13).

From the post in this thread by Ed Edwards made on May 26, 2004 07:49 AM EDT:
". . . pretribulation rapture . . . "

No scriptures say or require that the rapture will happen before the tribulation. Mark 13:24-27 says the rapture will happen after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to the same coming and gathering together (verse 1), saying it can't happen before the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13 says we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we'll need patience and faith during that time.

From the post in this thread by DHK made on May 27, 2004 03:38 AM EDT:
". . . There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the seals and trumpets are not judgements . . . "

The fact that Jesus opens the seals (Revelation 6) in no way requires that they're God's judgments or wrath; Jesus could be permitting Satan to bring them about at that time; just as the fact that God repeatedly allowed Satan to bring about all the things that came upon Job (1-2) in no way requires that all the things that came upon Job were is any way God's judgments or wrath against Job; God permitted Satan to bring them about at that time.

Similarly, the angels sounding the trumpets could be God's announcing of the events which will be brought about by Satan and fallen angels. Just as Satan was allowed to cast down a third of the stars in Revelation 12:4, so during the first four trumpets and in the sixth trumpet he'll be allowed by God to destroy a third part of the trees and a third part of the seas and a third part of the creatures in the sea and a third part of the ships and a third part of the rivers and a third part of the fountains of waters and darken a third part of the sun and a third part of the moon and a third part of the stars and slay a third part of mankind (Revelation 8:7-12; 9:15). The sixth trumpet isn't the work of God but of an army led by the fallen angels who were bound in the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14). The fifth trumpet can't be God's wrath because Christians aren't appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), and the 144,000 Christians will be the only Christians who won't be tormented by the locusts (Revelation 9:4; 7:3-4). We know there'll be other Christians on the earth besides the 144,000 during the trumpets because the 144,000 are subsequently seen in heaven (Revelation 14:1-5) while other Christians are still on the earth suffering and dying under the Antichrist (Revelation 14:12-13). So some of the church will still be alive on the earth during the trumpets.

From the post in this thread by DHK made on May 27, 2004 03:38 AM EDT:
". . . now He was about to give them His wrath . . . "

Again, the scriptures don't require that the sixth seal is really the wrath of the Lamb, for terrified unbelievers could be only thinking that it is (Revelation 6:17), just as the things which were sent against Job weren't really the wrath of God, even though Job thought that they were (Job 19:11).

From the post in this thread by DHK made on May 27, 2004 03:38 AM EDT:
". . . The Scriptures do require that words have meaning . . . "

While words have meaning, we as believers shouldn't base our doctrine on the words spoken in the Bible only by unbelievers. For example, in the Bible unbelievers repeatedly say that Jesus is a deceiver (Matthew 27:63; John 7:12). While the word deceiver means what it means, it is incorrectly applied to Jesus. No believer ever calls Jesus a deceiver. Similarly, the word wrath is applied to the possibly volcanic cataclysm of the sixth seal only by terrified unbelievers. No believer ever calls it God's wrath.

From the post in this thread by DeafPosttrib made on May 27, 2004 06:51 AM EDT:
". . . Rev. 6:12-15 refer to Matt. 24:29 . . . "

The signs of Revelation 6:12-13 aren't the same signs as Matthew 24:29. Not only are their timing completely different, the former signs occurring sometime during the tribulation (like Luke 21:11) and the latter signs occurring after the tribulation (like Luke 21:25), but they also involve different elements, the former signs including a great earthquake (like Luke 21:11), the latter signs not including an earthquake (like Luke 21:25), the former signs having the moon turning blood-red, the latter signs having the moon not give any light at all.

From the post in this thread by DeafPosttrib made on May 27, 2004 06:51 AM EDT:
". . . send them into everlasting fire under the wrath of God at Christ's coming . . . "

Regarding the wheat and tares, that will be fulfilled after the millennium, for Matthew 13:39-42 refers to the gathering and casting of all the tares into the lake of fire after the millennium (Revelation 20:15).

From the post in this thread by DeafPosttrib made on May 27, 2004 06:51 AM EDT:
". . . (unbelievers) shall SEE Christ coming in the clouds . . . "

There's no actual coming of Christ seen by believers at the sixth seal, so it could be a volcanic cataclysm during the tribulation which precedes the second coming by some years. The seven trumpets and seven vials (Revelation 8-9; Revelation 16) don't even begin until after the seventh seal is unsealed (Revelation 8:1-2).

The scriptures don't say that there'll first be a future coming of Christ to resurrect and rapture believers into heaven before the trumpets and vials, and then another coming of Christ from heaven with believers after the trumpets and vials. Instead, they refer to a single future coming of Christ, which doesn't occur until Revelation 19, after the vials. There's no third coming.

From the post in this thread by DeafPosttrib made on May 27, 2004 06:51 AM EDT:
". . . the book of Revelation was written like as retelling the events, cycles, and parallels . . . "

Revelation shows the seals, trumpets, and vials occurring in chronological order. The seven angels aren't even given the seven trumpets until after the seventh seal has been unsealed (Revelation 8:1-2), and the seven plagues of the seven vials could come out of the temple-opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19; Revelation 15:5-7).

From the post in this thread by DeafPosttrib made on May 27, 2004 06:51 AM EDT:
". . . Rev. 1:7- Christ's coming
Rev. 6:12-17 -Christ's coming
Rev. 11:15-19-Christ's coming
Rev. 14:14-20-Christ's coming
Rev. 16:15-16-Christ's coming
Rev. 19:11-21-Christ's coming
Rev. 20:9-Christ's coming

Does that mean there are seven comingS? . . . "

Only Revelation 19 shows the coming of Christ actually occurring at that time.

Revelation 1:7 refers to a future event.

Revelation 6:12-17 doesn't say or require that Christ must actually come at the sixth seal; it only relates the hyperbole of terrified unbelievers.

No second coming is seen at the seventh trumpet of the tribulation. Revelation 11:18 says only that it's "time" for Jesus to do things; it doesn't say that He actually does those things immediately after the seventh trumpet. Just as the "time" (Gk. kairos, Strong's #2540) of Revelation 1:3; 22:10 didn't require that the prophecies of Revelation be fulfilled immediately after the Apostle John wrote them in the first century, and just as the "time" (kairos) of 1 Peter 4:17 didn't require that the church be judged immediately after the Apostle Peter wrote his first letter in the first century, so the "time" (kairos) of Revelation 11:18 doesn't require that the dead be judged, and the servants be rewarded, and those who destroyed the earth be destroyed immediately after the seventh trumpet. Jesus could judge the church seventy-five days after the seventh trumpet, at His second coming (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy 4:1), and eternally judge unbelievers 1,000 years later (Revelation 20:7-15).

Revelation 14:14-16 doesn't refer to the rapture, but refers symbolically to Christ sitting on a cloud before the temple in the third heaven (Revelation 14:15-17) reaping with a sickle the souls of those dying under the Antichrist (Revelation 14:11-13) into heaven. The second reaping in Revelation 14:19-20 refers to an angel symbolically reaping with a sickle, the sickle probably representing the Antichrist himself (just as the king of Assyria is symbolically represented as the axe with which God hews Israel in Isaiah 10:15), and the reaping probably representing the Antichrist's taking and slaughtering of many unbelievers who will refuse to worship him (e.g. diehard Orthodox Jews, Muslims, atheists, etc.), the slaughter of whom will be God's wrath against them, just as the slaughter of ancient Israel by foreign powers was God's treading unbelieving Israel as in a winepress (Lamentations 1:15).

Revelation 16:15 doesn't show the second coming happening at that time, but is a promised blessing spoken during the events of the sixth vial to encourage the Christians still on the earth at that time.

Revelation 20:9 doesn't show the second coming, but the destruction of the armies of God and Magog after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-8), which millennium must occur after the second coming of Revelation 19 because the millennium won't begin until after the resurrection of the church (Revelation 20:6), and those Christians martyred under the reign of the Antichrist will also reign with Christ for the thousand years (Revelation 20:4).

From the post in this thread by DeafPosttrib made on May 27, 2004 06:51 AM EDT:
". . . There is NOT a single verse anywhere in the book of Revelation saying the wrath of God shall pour upon the saints . . . "

Amen.

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

 

[R. Charles Blair]

This is already a very long thread, and there is much repetition; I have just re-read the last 3 pages, and want to try the Greek of Titus 2:13 one more time. The expression "our great God and
Saviour Jesus Christ" with one definite article demands the deity of Christ - that He is God. Surely all of us agree there; check any Gr. grammar for the idea.

The first expression is exactly the same usage:
"the blessed hope and appearing of the glory..." is a word-for-word translation, one controlling "the" for both, making them the same event. Our blessed hope is His glorious appearing
("the appearing of His glory"). The assumption of a 7-year tribulation period gives a convenient way around the clear grammar of the passage, by suggesting that going through tribulation isn't a blessed hope. Of course not! But if we are in a time of tribulation (the common lot of believers, which may intensify just before the end), THE APPEARING OF HIS GLORY IS!!! Remember: the opposite of the wrath to which we are not appointed is "to obtain salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord," not to escape a period of tribulation. All early Christians expected to go through intense tribulation before the return of Christ; many actually did; many later believers have. But we will not enter the wrath of hell, for our Lord suffered that for us on Calvary.

More Scripture - less theology - the Baptist principle. Best - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Charles Blair,

AMEN!

I agree with you! Preach it!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!