Rapture Question

[Dave Bussard]

Okay Larry, you say that the Church is not mentioned in Revelation. It is, but I understand what you mean. The Church is not mentioned in chapters 4-18, so we must not be there.

The pre-trib theory informs us that the word "saints" rather than "church" is used to speak of the Christ-followers in Revelation 4–18 because the Church is not mentioned at this time. The reason, you say, is that we’re raptured beforehand. You have jumped to conclusions. This is a very short-sighted view because the truth of the matter is that it is only the word "church" that is not mentioned. This is a far cry from the actual Church itself not being there at all.

Okay, so the word "church" isn’t used in these chapters. The word "saints" is used instead. Is this because the Church isn’t there due to a pre-trib rapture? The word "saints" is found in the NIV New Testament 33 times before the book of Revelation. Every single time, it refers to those who are of the Church, as in 2 Cor. 1:1: "To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia…" If "saints" refers to the Church in every instance before Revelation, there’s no reason to say it’s not speaking of the Church in Revelation.

It is also important to keep in mind that the word "church" is not mentioned in the end of Revelation during the thousand-year reign of Christ or the times of the New Jerusalem either. Does the absence of this word mean we are not there? Of course not. Furthermore, John, the recorder of Revelation, never used the word "church" in the books of John or 1 John, which he also wrote. The argument from silence concerning the word "church" is beyond unconvincing.

Dave Bussard
www.whowillbeleftbehindandwhen.com
www.leftbehindwhen.injesus.com

 

[LadyEagle]

Good job, Pastor Larry!

Still listening for that sweet trumpet sound...

 

[postrib]

...God describes the tribulation as his judgments....

Does Revelation say the seals and trumpets of the tribulation are "judgments"? I believe God's judgment doesn't come until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), and none of them are directed at us Christians.

Note that the tribulation includes war, famine, plague, persecution, natural disaster, death -- things which we Christians have always suffered, and not because God was bringing judgment against us.

...There is no explicit statement regarding the timing of the Rapture...

Jesus says he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul says Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). We Christians must go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

...Rev 3:10...

Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time, and they weren't raptured.

...Like a thief in the night...

Note the "if" in the following verse: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). Paul confirms that if we watch for that day it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

...marriage feast...

Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10). I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming.

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

Note that the supper on the earth in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with the same coming in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory" (Isaiah 25:8); "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54).

In the pre-trib view, why isn't the Lamb at the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7) or the supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) at any time we see him during the tribulation (Revelation 5:6-13; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 14:1-4)?

...I await the cries of heresy...

I don't believe eschatology itself can be heretical because a heretic can't be saved (Galatians 5:20-21), and we aren't saved by our eschatology (Romans 10:9-10).

But I do believe that a wrong eschatology can lead to the changing or the inventing of other doctrines in order to conform to our eschatology. Pre-trib doctrine can define salvation to include being saved from the tribulation. When it's pointed out that a "great multitude" of Christians will be in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9, 14), pre-trib doctrine must then define the church as only those saved before a pre-trib rapture, and invent a new class of believers it calls "trib saints." But then we're left with the problem of a great multitude of Christians saved after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who are outside of the church, when Paul said there was only one faith and one body (Ephesians 4:4-6).

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

[John Miller]

No matter what you believe you better hope you are right.

I think we are all going to find out real soon.

 

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Nimrod:
No one has answered my question!

In Genesis 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

Was this fullfilled in light of Scripture IN
1 Kings 4:21 "And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt:"

If no why so?

No. The answer comes from reading the texts in question. Gen says from the river of Egypt and 1 Kings says unto the border of Egypt. Thus, two different boundaries are in question. Additionally, Genesis says that teh land will be owned; 1 Kings says it was merely reigned over yet still inhabited by others. Thus the texts in question answer the questions you raise.</font>[/QUOTE]Well then you disagree with Nehemiah.
See Nehemiah 9:23,24 "Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it. So the children went in and possessed the land, and thou subduedst before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gavest them into their hands, with their kings, and the people of the land, that they might do with them as they would.

Here we have Nehemiah saying the promised land by God was possessed by Israel.

CHECKMATE!