rapture questions

[Chowmah]

I would like to say i dont mind if anyone was to ask questions here about the rapture.

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

So at what time will “death be swallowed up in victory” ? There must be old testament scriptures that tell us exactly when that takes place.

 

[Tom Butler]

If there are OT scriptures which answer your question, I don't know of them. There could be, I just don't know.

However, every clear, unequivocal scripture, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation, puts it at the end of the tribulation.

 

[Chowmah]

If there are OT scriptures which answer your question, I don't know of them. There could be, I just don't know.

However, every clear, unequivocal scripture, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation, puts it at the end of the tribulation.

Hello Tom
I have found one scripture that speaks of it and like you say its definately after the tribulation period.

ISAIAH 25 [4] For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, A SHADOW FROM THE HEAT, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.[5] Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.[6] And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.[7] And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.[8] HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; WE HAVE WAITED FOR HIM, AND HE WILL SAVE US: THIS IS THE LORD; WE HAVE WAITED FOR HIM, WE WILL BE GLAD AND REJOICE IN HIS SALVATION.

Tom
If you were to read Isaiah 24 you will find the earth being burned and a few men left. This doesnt take place till the Day of the Lord. Am i right

 

[Salty]

..., not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation, puts it at the end of the tribulation.

actually, there are several interpretations, just only one is correct.:thumbs:

 

[Tom Butler]

actually, there are several interpretations, just only one is correct.:thumbs:

I hold that there are some scripture verses dealing with the end times which are clear, unequivocal and not subject to more than one interpretation.

Matthew 24:29-31, for example. "Immediately after the tribulation.....there shall appear the sign of the Son of Man..."

In that passage it speaks of the gathering of the elect. In no way can this be read as pre-tribulational.

I Thess 4:13-18 speaks of the rapture, and is a foundational passage for a pre-trib rapture. But nowhere does it say it's pre-tribulational.

Most dispies will cite 5:9 (not wrath, but salvation) as speaking of the rapture. But chapter 5 speaks of the Day of the Lord, which most, if not all, dispies hold is post-tribulational. So 5:9 is subject to more than one interpretation. I hold that it means salvation. Dispies hold that it means deliverance from the tribulation.

That's my point. Give me one verse that says the rapture is pre-trib, that is clear and unequivocal.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom
If you were to read Isaiah 24 you will find the earth being burned and a few men left. This doesnt take place till the Day of the Lord. Am i right

I don't profess to be an expert in this area, but I think you're right.

There are quite a few dispy folks on this board who could eat my lunch in a debate over the end times.

But one would think that there would be at least one verse which clearly states that the rapture is pre-tribulational. So I'm not going to debate. I just want that one verse.

 

[Tom Butler]

actually, there are several interpretations, just only one is correct.:thumbs:

No argument there, Salty. Well, actually, I guess there is an argument over which one is right.

 

[Iconoclast]

The rapture is the last day

 

[asterisktom]

Hello Tom
I have found one scripture that speaks of it and like you say its definately after the tribulation period.

ISAIAH 25 [4] For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, A SHADOW FROM THE HEAT, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.[5] Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.[6] And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.[7] And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.[8] HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; WE HAVE WAITED FOR HIM, AND HE WILL SAVE US: THIS IS THE LORD; WE HAVE WAITED FOR HIM, WE WILL BE GLAD AND REJOICE IN HIS SALVATION.

Tom
If you were to read Isaiah 24 you will find the earth being burned and a few men left. This doesnt take place till the Day of the Lord. Am i right

You did well to link Isaiah 25:4-8 with 1 Cor. 15:54-55, but don't stop there. That very passage in Isaiah has other NT cross-references that help pinpoint both the timing and the nature of what Paul writes in 1 Cor.15:

Compare Isa. 25:7-8 with 2 Cor. 3:14-16. And 25:6 with Matt. 8:11 and following.

 

[Chowmah]

Yes asteriskTom
Right now im looking into "woman with child". I also see a resurrection in Isaiah 26. More than likely the same one found in 1Cor.15.

 

[billwald]

I think the Rapture occurred and as he predicted, Jesus didn't find enough people "of faith" to be noticed.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If there are OT scriptures which answer your question, I don't know of them. There could be, I just don't know.

However, every clear, unequivocal scripture, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation, puts it at the end of the tribulation.

GE:

Which means you have only moved the goal posts; have moved the question from "at the end", to, after "the tribulation".

What is the 'end'? Reformed Protestant Faith believes when Christ shall - visibly - come again, to STAY; and simultaneously with his coming, the putting on of immortality by the living saints, and the resurrection of ALL the dead and the IMMEDIATE (following) last judgment. Which is what I believe.

What is 'the tribulation'? I believe the tribulation is as described in Revelation 20. The 'tribulation' is the metaphorical Thousand Years of the Gospel Age, "THIS the First (metaphorical) Resurrection." Christ triumphed IN his agony; so the saints, triumph IN their co-suffering of Christ's suffering. Their (metaphorical) 'tribulation' is their (metaphorical) "reign with Christ on his throne, the (metaphorical) Thousand Years".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Hello Tom
I have found one scripture that speaks of it and like you say its definately after the tribulation period.

ISAIAH 25 [4] For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, A SHADOW FROM THE HEAT, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.[5] Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.[6] And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.[7] And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.[8] HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; WE HAVE WAITED FOR HIM, AND HE WILL SAVE US: THIS IS THE LORD; WE HAVE WAITED FOR HIM, WE WILL BE GLAD AND REJOICE IN HIS SALVATION.

Tom
If you were to read Isaiah 24 you will find the earth being burned and a few men left. This doesnt take place till the Day of the Lord. Am i right

GE:

I believe the Scripture --- as ALL Scripture --- speaks of BOTH the Christ-Era and His Second Coming on the clouds of heaven and the subsequent New Earth – speaks in the first place of our present age wherein Christ HAD conquered the devil and HAD done all the things mentioned in the Scripture. There is not one word one could and should not truly believe after what Christ HAD done IN having become a man in the flesh. Then on strength of it, there is not one word one could not and should not believe with reference to what is still to come at Christ’s second coming.

You haven't asked me, but if I might say, I would say you are wrong, Chowmah --- DEPENDING on what you mean with "it's definitely after the tribulation period"!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The rapture is the last day

GE:

Agreed; but the Scriptures NEVER uses the word 'rapture'; 'rapture is a word that appeared in one certain 'translation' from the nineteenth century only.

No one is ever again going to find his feet lifting from this earth's surface like Elijah's. In fact the Lord is going to bring Elijah down with Him back to earth in the last day when He comes again.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Myths are relatively recent--- since man became wise in his own eyes. Truth is as old as the Word of God. That's why I smile at the 'rapture' myth.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I hold that there are some scripture verses dealing with the end times which are clear, unequivocal and not subject to more than one interpretation.

Matthew 24:29-31, for example. "Immediately after the tribulation.....there shall appear the sign of the Son of Man..."

In that passage it speaks of the gathering of the elect. In no way can this be read as pre-tribulational.

I Thess 4:13-18 speaks of the rapture, and is a foundational passage for a pre-trib rapture. But nowhere does it say it's pre-tribulational.

Most dispies will cite 5:9 (not wrath, but salvation) as speaking of the rapture. But chapter 5 speaks of the Day of the Lord, which most, if not all, dispies hold is post-tribulational. So 5:9 is subject to more than one interpretation. I hold that it means salvation. Dispies hold that it means deliverance from the tribulation.

That's my point. Give me one verse that says the rapture is pre-trib, that is clear and unequivocal.

GE:

Re: "Matthew 24:29-31, for example. "Immediately after the tribulation.....there shall appear the sign of the Son of Man..."

In that passage it speaks of the gathering of the elect. In no way can this be read as pre-tribulational."

GE:

Yes! It's POST-'tribulational', that is clear and unequivocal! (The 'tribulation' the saints' "co-reign with Christ ... the Thousand Years THIS the First Resurrection".)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I don't profess to be an expert in this area, but I think you're right.

There are quite a few dispy folks on this board who could eat my lunch in a debate over the end times.

But one would think that there would be at least one verse which clearly states that the rapture is pre-tribulational. So I'm not going to debate. I just want that one verse.

GE:

I second!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Yes asteriskTom
Right now im looking into "woman with child". I also see a resurrection in Isaiah 26. More than likely the same one found in 1Cor.15.

GE:

Look at 1Cor15 and see the resurrection of Christ in it, first of all, and as conditional for the resurrection at the last trumpet in the last day.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You did well to link Isaiah 25:4-8 with 1 Cor. 15:54-55, but don't stop there. That very passage in Isaiah has other NT cross-references that help pinpoint both the timing and the nature of what Paul writes in 1 Cor.15:

Compare Isa. 25:7-8 with 2 Cor. 3:14-16. And 25:6 with Matt. 8:11 and following.

GE:

...and apply to "TODAY"! Good! The Christian reads Moses with the veil REMOVED by and in Jesus Christ. He understands the Scriptures because they speak of Christ. It's FUNDAMENTAL to, and of, Christian Faith.

 

[steaver]

I don't profess to be an expert in this area, but I think you're right.

There are quite a few dispy folks on this board who could eat my lunch in a debate over the end times.

But one would think that there would be at least one verse which clearly states that the rapture is pre-tribulational. So I'm not going to debate. I just want that one verse.

If Christians will witness the Antichrist revealed and remain on earth until Jesus returns to destroy him, then the following scripture would have to be a lie....

Mat 24:3¶And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming
Mat 24:36¶But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

If the Antichrist should be revealed today we could all calculate the exact day that Jesus will return making His statement a false statement.