rapture questions

[Tom Butler]

If Christians will witness the Antichrist revealed and remain on earth until Jesus returns to destroy him, then the following scripture would have to be a lie....

Mat 24:3¶And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming
Mat 24:36¶But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

If the Antichrist should be revealed today we could all calculate the exact day that Jesus will return making His statement a false statement.

If you figure the tribulation will last seven years, one would think that marking the beginning would enable him to pinpoint the Second Coming.

If.....

I think it'll be a bit difficult to mark that moment where we can say, "uh-oh, the tribulation just began."

But the little problem in adding seven years from the beginning, even if we can pinpoint the moment, is that Jesus the tribulation won't last seven years.

Matthew 24:22

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 23 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened

So the great tribulation will last less than seven years.

We don't know how much less, so we can't know the day and the hour.

And I won't even guess. I remember somebody wrote a book called 88 Reasons Why Jesus Will Return in 1988--or something like that.

Oops.

 

[steaver]

If you figure the tribulation will last seven years,

There is no figuring needed. It is written for us. The scripture is clear that the tribulation begins with the Antichrist revealed to the world and ends exactly seven years to the day afterwards.

But the little problem in adding seven years from the beginning, even if we can pinpoint the moment, is that Jesus the tribulation won't last seven years.

Matthew 24:22

There is no reason for adding this conjecture into this passage of scripture. Jesus already said that the tribulation will be shortened to exactly seven years. It will begin in the name of peace and end in more evil than the world has ever known. Thank God Jesus will keep it shortened to a total of seven years.

 

[Salty]

... And I won't even guess. I remember somebody wrote a book called 88 Reasons Why Jesus Will Return in 1988--or something like that.

Oops.

Edgar Whisenant (1932-2001) wrote "88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988" and "On Borrowed Time". (I still have a copy of the book)


When I did a talk show for WOIV back in the late '80, I interviewed Edgar via phone. A listener was very interested in his theory and about a month later he invited Edgar to come to Syracuse for a seminar. At that Seminar I had the chance to sit down with him for a short conversation. After speaking with him, I know he was confident of his belief. (He was as sincere as Charlie Brown) This was his last seminar before the rapture (was suppose to take place) The one thing I remember specifically is the reason Edgar would do no more speaking engagements was because he wanted to go home and take care of things. Most importantly was his dog. He wanted to make sure the dog had enough food and other items to last him until he could be otherwise taken care of.

Keep in mind, Edgar was no dummy, he was a NASA engineer. One thing that concerned me was that he said he had not been to church in years because he stayed home to study the doctrine of the rapture.

Of course as we all know, Mr. "Whis -a Nut"* was wrong as so many others.

Salty

* that is how we at WOIV-FM would refer to him
We also had practice rapture alerts. At the sound, we would jump out of our chairs!! (keep in mind our AM station had several secular programs - with non-Christians - we were just trying to prepare them:tongue3: :smilewinkgrin:

PS - I'm sure I have that program on tape - somewhere...

 

[Chowmah]

Is this the timeline for the rapture theory?

Last trumpet to be blown
1st ressurection
people raptured

7 year tribulation period

Day of the Lord

1000yr period of rest

2nd ressurection
Great White thrown judgement

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

The *most* important issue is to be ready always...

To understand that whether we fly or die His Grace is sufficient...

There is enough uncertainty in Scripture about this issue that we need to remain dilligent and always prepared to look to Jesus the Author and Finisher of Our Faith.

As we begin to understand themanner of beheading during the tribulation the Rapture becomes even more a thing to be desired.

But, would you be willing to die for Christ? Or if faced with a pocket knife at your neck renounce him to gaim a few more moments of life?

Are we Vacationers for Christ? Or, are we Soldiers for Christ? Of who it is said,

Psa 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

Are we looking for an escape clause or a service clause?

I personally am looking for the upper-taker not the under-taker.

But, that may not be His will for me.

So, the best I can do is stay as close as I can and pray that I quit this life as True Christian.

 

[Chowmah]

So Mr Madman
You appear to believe in the rapture. Did i get the timeline correct?

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

So Mr Madman
You appear to believe in the rapture. Did i get the timeline correct?

Yes and No... :

That's one of the problems with End Times stuff. There are far too many renderings of God's Intent. I think that Our Father gave us clues. But, not enough to set down times and dates.

From my background I have come to believe that Revelations uses the OT method of telling a story by repeating it.

In this manner the Last Trumpet would be within the Tribulation.

I, personally, believe that the Modern Church will see the beginning of sorrows and that many will think that they are in the great tribulation and that will cause many of the Pre-Trib Pre-Millenialist to lose heart and faith.

I am not as sure about whether we will see the revelation of The Antichrist. Those events are so "cluttered" I am hard pressed to settle it in my own heart.

Items to consider: A seven year peace accord that will be broken after 3 and a half years. If Prince Charles or obama or another starts talking about a middle east peace accord that will be hammered down for 7 years. watch Out.

We will continue to have wars and rumors of wars until "Shiloh" brings Peace and rules with a Rod of Iron.

The Last Trumpet does not have to be the the Last trump of 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Thess 4 mentions a trump of God...

This has given rise to some speculation of a multi-part rapture. But, that gets really dicey.

There are also mid-trib rapture theories.

Irregardless... The key is to be Always ready...

 

[Chowmah]

Yes and No... :

This is often used as the walrus's nose under the igloo by the rapturist. They claim the rapture is in the scriptures but when you ask them where it is or how its to be, they say yes and no. Each rapturist has their own senerio. Lets look at the "last trumpet"

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown prior to the tribulation or mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation.

ZECH.9 [14] And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the LORD GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.[15] The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.[16] And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.[17] For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.

I have a feeling that the above scripture points out the “last trumpet”. The Lord God shall blow that trumpet. And it will be blown on The Day of the Lord.
What do you say SpiritualMadMan. Is the last trumpet in 1Cor.15 the last trumpet to be blown as that scripture states or must you do a song and dance around that scripture?

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

The reason I am not debating you is that I do not believe any logical and scriptural argument will lessen your antipathy against those of use who are looking for the Upper-Taker not the Under-Taker.

I ask you this have you ever known any Bridegroom to beat the Bride up just before the wedding feast?

Of course that begs another whole conflict on who the Bride of Christ is and who the Friends of the Bridegroom are, doesn't it.

But, I can't see the Bridegroom beating up on his best men either...

We are subject to Discipline *not* Wrath.

The Tribulation is a time of the pouring out of God's Wrath...

Which is why I divide the Word of Truth such that God Provides us an Ark in the last days in the form of a catching away.

But, even if He doesn't... I intend to be ready always!

 

[Chowmah]

I ask you this have you ever known any Bridegroom to beat the Bride up just before the wedding feast?

Of course that begs another whole conflict on who the Bride of Christ is and who the Friends of the Bridegroom are, doesn't it.

But, I can't see the Bridegroom beating up on his best men either...

We are subject to Discipline *not* Wrath.
The Tribulation is a time of the pouring out of God's Wrath...

I always thought the trib period was brought on by the bad guy and the Day of the Lord was the time of Gods wrath. Am i confused? Anyways...

JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

ISAIAH 26 [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] COME, MY PEOPLE, ENTER THOU INTO THY CHAMBERS, AND SHUT THY DOORS ABOUT THEE: HIDE THYSELF AS IT WERE FOR A LITTLE MOMENT, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

No need for a rapture. Nothing to worry about. Just gotta play a little hide and seek till Gods wrath (His indignation) has passed. You might also notice the dead in Christ rising first (as mentioned in 1 Cor.15).

ZEPH. 2 [1] Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; [2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you. [3] SEEK YE THE LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER.

See? We will be here on earth during the Day of the Lord. But were gonna have a good hiding place.

PROVERBS 3 [22] So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. [23] Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. [24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. [25] BE NOT AFRAID of sudden fear, neither OF THE DESOLATION OF THE WICKED, when it cometh. [26] For THE LORD SHALL BE THY CONFIDENCE, AND SHALL KEEP THY FOOT FROM BEING TAKEN.

Show no fear when Jesus returns to get rid of the bad guys.

PSALM 9 [5] Thou hast rebuked the heathen, THOU HAST DESTROYED THE WICKED, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. [6] O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them. [7] But the Lord shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment. [8] And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness. [9] THE LORD ALSO WILL BE A REFUGE FOR THE OPPRESSED, A REFUGE IN TIMES OF TROUBLE. [10] And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

PSALM 12 [3] The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: [4] Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? [5] For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, NOW WILL I ARISE, saith the Lord; I WILL SET HIM IN SAFETY from him that puffeth at him.

I kinda knew all along that Jesus could protect His people in times of trouble even before I found these scriptures. We are not apointed to wrath and now we know why. A little game of hide and seek the Lord.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

---snip---
No need for a rapture. Nothing to worry about. Just gotta play a little hide and seek till Gods wrath (His indignation) has passed. You might also notice the dead in Christ rising first (as mentioned in 1 Cor.15).
---snip---

Yeah, just a little hide and seek and no Ark of Hope...

Tell me, you who look forward to going through the tribulation, do you really think that you will be able to play hide and seek with a satanically inhabited and inspired government?

Consider this:
2Th 2:6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
2Th 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

This tells, me at least, that the Antichrist can not be revealed until "someone" who is holding him back is taken out of the way.

Now, I've always believed that was the Holy Spirit embodied in The Church.

Now, if it is the Holy Spirit and the church isn't taken out of the way with Him, then what do we do with this?

Rom 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Which says if the Spirit does not reside in you you can not be a Christian...

Granted people will accept the Testimony of Christ during the Tribulation.

But, something has to be taken out of the way for the Man of Sin, The Antichrist, to be revealed.

So, will Christians lose their Comforter just when we need Him the most?

I think not.

 

[Chowmah]

Yeah, just a little hide and seek and no Ark of Hope...

Tell me, you who look forward to going through the tribulation, do you really think that you will be able to play hide and seek with a satanically inhabited and inspired government?

Consider this:
2Th 2:6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
2Th 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

This tells, me at least, that the Antichrist can not be revealed until "someone" who is holding him back is taken out of the way.

Now, I've always believed that was the Holy Spirit embodied in The Church.
Now, if it is the Holy Spirit and the church isn't taken out of the way with Him, then what do we do with this?

Rom 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Which says if the Spirit does not reside in you you can not be a Christian...

Granted people will accept the Testimony of Christ during the Tribulation.

But, something has to be taken out of the way for the Man of Sin, The Antichrist, to be revealed.

So, will Christians lose their Comforter just when we need Him the most?

I think not.

Right in the middle of your post you make a statement not found in scripture. Then you go on to build a little story around that statement which again is not found in scripture. I dont know what to say. I think youve watch to many of those left behind movies.

 

[Chowmah]

Yeah, just a little hide and seek and no Ark of Hope...
Tell me, you who look forward to going through the tribulation, do you really think that you will be able to play hide and seek with a satanically inhabited and inspired government?

Uhhh...i didnt write the bible. I believe what it says. Do i believe that Jesus can keep us from harm during the trib period? Yes. His Word says so.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

1st post: OK if not the Holy Spirit. Who is holding the Antichrist back? We know it is a "who" because Paul writes about "the one" holding the lawless one back...

2nd post:
Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Protected by beheading?

If the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, what's gonna be your source of guidance?

Where in the book does it say Jesus will be "here" during the Tribulation to protect you.?

If He is not here, how is He gonna protect you?

If He is here, how can The Righteous One stand back and allow evil to have its course?

He couldn't even let the money changers alone...

 

[Chowmah]

1st post: OK if not the Holy Spirit. Who is holding the Antichrist back? We know it is a "who" because Paul writes about "the one" holding the lawless one back...

I dont know who is holding the antichrist back and i have not found a scripture telling me who it is. That does not give me the right to add to the Word of God and draw up my own little story as to who it is.

DEUT. 4 [2] YE SHALL NOT ADD UNTO THE WORD which I command you, NEITHER SHALL YE DIMINISH OUGHT FROM IT, that ye may KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of the Lord your God which I command you.

You seem to make a habit of that practice

 

[DixieBoy]

1st post: OK if not the Holy Spirit. Who is holding the Antichrist back? We know it is a "who" because Paul writes about "the one" holding the lawless one back...

Just a couple of thoughts to share. I don't know who the who is. It could very well be an angel. In the book of Revelations I see that it is an angel that laid hold of the dragon (Satan) and removes him.

If He is not here, how is He gonna protect you?

Even though God dwells in heaven He is quite able to protect his people. In prayer most people ask for God's protection continually.

Psa 91:9 You trust in the LORD for protection. You have made God Most High your place of safety.

Psa 91:10 So nothing bad will happen to you. No diseases will come near your home.

Psa 91:11 He will command his angels to protect you wherever you go.

Psa 91:12 Their hands will catch you so that you will not hit your foot on a rock.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Hey Dixieboy, how much of the tit for tat have you read?

I don't know where you are in regards to end times, rapture, etc. So, I am not sure how to respond to you.


I am having a very hard time framing my thoughts civily.

Because, I have a real problem with Christians who have the Truth of the Gospel of Christ and are (supposedly) empowered by the Holy Spirit sitting idly by while the Antichrist ravages this earth.

But, then I remember that it was such a church that kept silence during 2008 out of fear for their 503C3 status and let the truth of obama fail to be acknowledged in church.

I just have a hard time seeing the true church of Jesus Christ over run with evil.

But, it is with sadness I must acknowledge that it already has.

And, as such, such a church would not and does not need to be taken out of the way for the antichirst to rule and reign because it has already ceded the battle.

 

[billwald]

I still think I think the Rapture occurred and as he predicted, Jesus didn't find enough people "of faith" to be noticed. Is there any evidence that I am wrong?

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

2Th 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2Th 2:2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
2Th 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

 

[billwald]

Obama, right? <G>