DC would like to help you with the error in your understanding of the First Resurrection but DC is awaiting a response to his points.
God bless.
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Rapture questions
- Thread starter Chowmah
- Start date
DC would like to help you with the error in your understanding of the First Resurrection but DC is awaiting a response to his points.
God bless.
DC would like to help you with the error in your understanding of the First Resurrection but DC is awaiting a response to his points.
God bless.
And what points have i not responded to DC. Remember...i believe the grass is green no matter what song and dance i hear
Start with the first response and work your way down.
Really would like to discuss the First Resurrection. But no point if you cannot discuss simpler points.
God bless.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Chowmah makes more sense than you do. He is correct inso far as he goes. When Jesus Christ resurrects the dead at HIS Second Coming:
1. HE will conduct the White Throne Judgment,
2. Cast Satan and his into the lake of fire,
3. And will live with the Church, HIS Bride the redeemed of all time, in the New Heavens and New Earth throughout eternity.
Face it DC, your understanding of Scripture is incredibly poor!
Yeah....as expected
Isaiah 30
{17} One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.
Flee if you wish
Yup. For sure. The grass is green. Go mets!!!
I think he already knows that.
The rapture is the first resurrection, followed by a seven year tribulation, and then a thousand year Millennial Kingdom. At that time there will be a second resurrection, the resurrection of the unjust, all of whom will stand before the Great White Throne Judgement (Rev.20:11-15).
Thus the first and second resurrection are separated by at least one thousand years as Rev.20:1-5 specifically tells us.
Looking for more cheerleaders, eh?
That's okay.
Not going to help your doctrine, lol.
Not sure he has made these claims, but then, he being much like you, refusing to answer simple points, and obviously unable to comprehend concepts when too many words are involved...I have decided to let him stew in his own doctrinal quagmire.
But you, you're a horse I feel I should at least try to make take a drink of the Word of God, and supplement the Catholic Kool-Aid you have been indulging in.
Sorry, but there is no Great White Throne Judgment at Christ's Return.
That is a doctrinal position that completely ignores the text of Scripture and makes Scripture fit into a theology system of spiritualization of the Word of God.
And you know this, yet you still muck the boards with your insistence of an eschatological view that wrests the Scriptures.
But I'll show it to you again:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Pretty simple, really. When Christ returns, the second Resurrection listed in the timeline of events is that of Tribulation Martyrs.
Not the Church.
And certainly not everyone, as your false doctrine insists. I have emphasized the Word of God which you have taken away in your doctrine.
I'll do that in this passage as well, where Scripture actually teaches us where the Great White Throne comes into being:
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Imagine that. Here you are saying...
...when in fact it is plain to see that the Great White Throne does not occur until a thousand years after Christ's Second Coming.
And you want to talk about what makes sense? lol
Right.
Continued...
Sorry, wrong again.
Have to take away from Scripture to deceive one's self into that view.
Revelation 20:7-12
King James Version (KJV)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Actually, to be dogmatic about Christ either being in Heaven or on the earth during the Millennial Kingdom is a bit presumptuous.
What we can say dogmatically is that we will be with Christ, whereas we understand those on earth will not necessarily be.
We can say dogmatically that the same thousand years you and your Steeped in Catholic Tradition take out of Scripture separates the Return of Christ and the establishment of the Eternal State:
Revelation 20:7-11
King James Version (KJV)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
What we can be dogmatic about is what the eternal abode of the Body of Christ is:
John 14
King James Version (KJV)
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Revelation 21:1-3
King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Now where your doctrine errs is that it cannot reconcile the Whole Counsel of God's Word.
But we can dogmatically leave Scripture intact and conclude that Christ will gather the Church, even as Paul teaches in the First Century, and that during that thousand years, before this current Creation passes away, and the Eternal State is established...we have the Lord's Word that we will be with Him, and common sense would dictate that this will be in that place prepared by Him, which is currently in Heaven, and will not come down from Heaven until the actual new heavens and new earth are created.
That leaves just one place for the Church to be when she is Raptured.
Maybe you and your prospective cheerleader can get together and see just how much you agree on in regards to what Scripture actually teaches.
What I will face is your own doctrine, my presentation leaving Scripture intact and not guilty of this:
Revelation 22:17-19
King James Version (KJV)
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Here is how you see Revelation 20:
Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him.
7 And when the are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
So I guess it really makes sense that you feel your prospective cheerleader makes more sense, after all, he did say...
Seriously, are you guys professional comedians?
The humor abounds in these threads.
And speaking of taking away and adding things, can you quote your friend stating the doctrine you just presented?
Like to see those quotes.
God bless.
lol...what a mighty debater you are.
Well, except for not seeing the relevance of glorification in a Rapture discussion, that is. Or the relevance of the meaning of the word harpazo in a rapture discussion.
Yep...what's not to fear...? lol
God bless.
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I have the timeline of events listing the resurrections/raptures (which need to be distinguished) seen in Scripture as thus:
1: the Church raptured prior to the Tribulation;
2: the Two Witnesses raptured;
3: the resurrection of Tribulation Martyrs, who seem to be raised in glorified bodies which is implied in the duration of their reigning with Christ which extends throughout the Millennial Kingdom. I don't think we can be dogmatic that they abide on the earth, though, just as we cannot be dogmatic about Christ abiding only on earth, both sides have valid points to consider.
4: the resurrection of the dead, which at the least we can be dogmatic that the lost are at this time raised to stand before the Great White Throne. This occurs 1,000 years after the Return of Christ which is evident in clear and unambiguous terms in Revelation 20. Whether this resurrection will include those from among the Just is an open topic of discussion which I also don't think we can be dogmatic about, but, I lean heavily towards this likely consisting of the Lost only. They are called the "dead" which is an unfitting descriptor of those alive in Christ, though we do see it employed in Paul's teaching of the Rapture.
I would say...
Revelation 20:12-13
King James Version (KJV)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Here we see that the "dead" are judged out of the books, which doesn't seem consistent with the fact that those in Christ, when they are judged, are not judged to determine eternal destiny, but reward. The "books" I believe to be the revelation of God, or in other words, the Books of the Bible, as well as those books that some have viewed as "holy writings." Not that justifies them as holy writings, but simply is a principle we see here:
James 4:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
God bless.
OK my 1st question has been answered. There are no scriptures that say we are headin for heaven at the so called rapture event
My next question is about the LAST trumpet and when that LAST trumpet will be blown
1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15.
How do the Rapturist explain this away?
My next question is about the LAST trumpet and when that LAST trumpet will be blown
1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15.
How do the Rapturist explain this away?
Has it? You have a lot of Scripture yet to address.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2220000&postcount=18
There is an overwhelming abundance of Scripture that the first resurrection, the resurrection of the just, Christ coming for His bride, or the rapture is prior to the tribulation. There is no such thing as "spiritual resurrection." Look it up in the dictionary. A resurrection always refers to the body. The bodies of believers will be raised at that time. Flesh will enter into heaven, from whence our Lord Jesus will come.
It is somewhat irrelevant. The reason is context. There may be several "last trumpets." The last trumpet in 1Thes.4:17 is not necessarily the last trump sounded in the book of Revelation.
The trumpet shall sound and we all shall be changed. So?
It also says that everything shall take place "in the twinkling of an eye," that is, so fast you won't even know it happened until you are already in heaven.
A different trumpet. There are many trumpets. This is a trumpet sounded for war; the other for comfort and joy.
"Wherefore one another comfort each other with these words."
There is more than one trumpet--obviously. There are seven trumpets besides these ones mentioned in the book of Revelation alone. Then there are others. Why should it be incredible for you to believe there is more than one trumpet. This passage doesn't even say the last trumpet. It says a loud trumpet.
It is all according to context. "Last trumpet" is last according to what? In relation to what? Maybe it is the last trumpet that will be blown in heaven before the tribulation will start.
There is no time in eternity. So who but you should say that there is?
Last is only relevant to the event being spoken of.
The last seal (of seven); The last trump (of seven); The last vial (of seven).
You will find other seals, trumps and vials besides those ones. They aren't the very last ones.
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So where is the LAST trumpet to be blown, found in the Word?
1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Mystery—last trumpet {it shall sound}
REVELATION 8 [1] And when he had opened THE SEVENTH SEAL, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [2] And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.
Seventh angel has a trumpet. It shall sound
REVELATION 10 [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Mystery—finished—The seventh angel begins to sound. This is the LAST trumpet you find being blown in the bible
REVELATION 16 [17] And the SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE.
REVELATION 11 [14] The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. [15]And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
As i said before, we do not flit off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. As the seventh angel sounds the trumpet the kingdoms of this world are to become the kingdoms of the Lord and thats where the Lord will bring us after meeting Him in the air. His kingdom
1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Mystery—last trumpet {it shall sound}
REVELATION 8 [1] And when he had opened THE SEVENTH SEAL, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [2] And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.
Seventh angel has a trumpet. It shall sound
REVELATION 10 [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Mystery—finished—The seventh angel begins to sound. This is the LAST trumpet you find being blown in the bible
REVELATION 16 [17] And the SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE.
REVELATION 11 [14] The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. [15]And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
As i said before, we do not flit off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. As the seventh angel sounds the trumpet the kingdoms of this world are to become the kingdoms of the Lord and thats where the Lord will bring us after meeting Him in the air. His kingdom
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
John 14:1-3 - Christ is coming back to receive us to Himself - after having gone and prepared a place for us - in His Father's house. -- Heaven.
Then in 1Thess 4 we are caught up to meet him in the air.
Christ is coming back for the saints - and the "dead in Christ will rise first'.
These are those in the Rev 20:4-5 "FIRST resurrection" that John sees in the future.
in Christ,
Bob
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The Last Trumpet is the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation at which time the general Resurrection and Judgment occur!
Revelation 11:15-19
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
I did not see your post #78 until after I posted the above!
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