Rapture = Second Coming?

[Aki]

one's view of the church influences his view of the second coming. if the church is viewed as new and was a replacement as the body responsible for the dissemination of the gospel due to the disobeidience of the jews, then most who cling to this believe the rapture of the church to be different from the second coming.

take note that the second coming of Jesus Christ is for the Jews alone as a fulfillement of God's promise. it's not for the church, nor with it. however, the scriptures teach of the church-age believers being caught up in the air, thus the rapture. therefore, if one holds the church to be a new entity in the old testament, then it's rapture being different from the second coming makes good sense, and a clear outline, distinction and connection among different parts of the bible.

 

[Daniel David]

Oldreg, please compare John 14:1-3 and I Thess. 4:13-17 with Matthew 24 and Revelation 19.

You will note several things. One of those things is that in Christ's return mentioned in John, he will take us back to heaven.

Then, note that Matthew 24 and Revelation 19 he comes to the earth to stay.

What is so significant is that the saints in heaven (Revelation 5:10) are told that they will reign UPON THE EARTH.

Imagine that, the saved in heaven will (in the future) reign upon the earth.

Tell me, when did those saint's reign upon the earth?

 

[trailblazer]

then it's rapture, being different from the second coming, makes good sense, AKI,

Could you please give the Scripture references that you use as a foundation for your beliefs on the following that you say;

1) " take note that the second coming of Jesus Christ is for the Jews alone...

2) ...as a fulfillement of God's promise."

3) "It's not for the church,

4) ...nor with it."

5) "However, the scriptures teach of the church-age believers being caught up in the air, thus the rapture."

 

[trailblazer]

then it's rapture, being different from the second coming, makes good sense, AKI,

Could you please give the Scripture references that you use as a foundation for your beliefs on the following that you say;

1) " take note that the second coming of Jesus Christ is for the Jews alone...

2) ...as a fulfillement of God's promise."

3) "It's not for the church,

4) ...nor with it."

5) "However, the scriptures teach of the church-age believers being caught up in the air, thus the rapture."

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by Daniel David:

Imagine that, the saved in heaven will (in the future) reign upon the earth.

We will receive glorified bodies like Jesus has when raptured, can you give me any sound reason for co-existing with earthlings when we have immortal bodies?

 

[Daniel David]

Um, you mean besides the fact that Revelation 5:10 says so?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Aki:
one's view of the church influences his view of the second coming. if the church is viewed as new and was a replacement as the body responsible for the dissemination of the gospel due to the disobeidience of the jews, then most who cling to this believe the rapture of the church to be different from the second coming.

take note that the second coming of Jesus Christ is for the Jews alone as a fulfillement of God's promise. it's not for the church, nor with it. however, the scriptures teach of the church-age believers being caught up in the air, thus the rapture. therefore, if one holds the church to be a new entity in the old testament, then it's rapture being different from the second coming makes good sense, and a clear outline, distinction and connection among different parts of the bible.

Amen, Brother Aki -- Preach it!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Um, you mean besides the fact that Revelation 5:10 says so?

Amen, Brother David Daniel -- Preach it!

Revelation 5:9-10 (HCSB):

And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals; because You were slaughtered, and
You redeemed people for God by Your blood from every tribe
and language and people and nation.
10 You made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they will reign on the earth.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Bluefalcon:
I would like to know where you studied if it was not DTS.

Yours,

Bluefalcon

What is a "DTS"?

I studied under the Holy Spirt for 52 years
(since my acceptance of Jesus as my
Master which made Him my Savior also).

 

[prophecynut]

most versions have "on the earth," while Darby and the Amplified Bible have "over" the earth." The same Greek word epi is properly translated "on" or "upon" or "over" as it is in Rev. 2:26.

In the Scriptures from Acts to Jude the Church is never associated with earthly things during the Trib or Mill. Our union with Christ and our future presence with him is always depicted as a heavenly one.

 

[rjprince]

I was waiting for the DTS (Dallas Theological Seminary) answer, too. Sadly DTS is now going progressive in their dispensationalism. GTS (Grace Theological Seminary) is still holding the line though as far as I can tell. Pretty sure that TTU (Tenn Temple, much less prestigious that the other two) is holding strong as well.

Ed E, no doubt in those 52 years you have read L.S. Chafer, C.I. Scofield, J. Waalvoord, C. Ryrie et. al.

Re extent of this question: It is boxed now, waiting for office to get built, but Waalvoord's, "The Rapture Question" was almost 400 pages, if my memory serves me correctly. This is a BIG one!

Would also suggest that the only specific sign in Matt 24 is the Abomination of Desolation from Daniel 9. The rest are general signs that have not clear time of fulfillment. Would also caution that Matt 24 DOES NOT ADDRESS THE RAPTURE AT ALL!!! The ones taken are taken in judgement, not deliverance. In the Olivet Discourse, you did not want to be taken, you wanted to be left behind!

Just found this site yesterday! A lot more here to comment on, out of time.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Rjprince: "Ed E, no doubt in those 52 years you have read
L.S. Chafer, C.I. Scofield, J. Waalvoord, C. Ryrie et. al."

Mostly I read Paul, Peter, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and James.

Rjprince: " Would also caution that Matt 24 DOES NOT ADDRESS THE RAPTURE AT ALL!!!"

Wrong mystic breath

, what is the literal meaning
of the Greek word "KAI" ?

Rjprince: "Just found this site yesterday! A lot more here
to comment on, out of time."

I understand the feeling.
I have more time on the week-end (well, maybe a week-end next year
in late January???
So you haven't read my writings.
Here is the one on the MOD (Mount Olivet Discourse):

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc&gt

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

[rjprince]

So, you just read the Bible? You do not ready any conservative Bible believing, Bible teaching theologians and you did not go to any Bible College, Seminary, etc?

Agree and teach much of what you have written. But, Matthew does not really give the detail on when the temple will be destroyed, Luke does, 21:20. Nothing in Matthew 24-25 decisively fits AD 70. Luke 21 does.

Gathering of 24:31 fits second coming to earth at endo of trib, but does not fit the rapture for following reasons:

Out of line with chronology of vss 29 to 30 – “after the tribulation of the those days...” From earlier posts I do not recall that you argued for a post trib rapture.

Does not fit with coming for His saints – “all tribes of the earth mourn... they shall see... power and great glory...” These are elements of second coming to earth.

The ones “taken” are not taken in deliverance, they are taken in judgement. Noe (Noah) was left, not taken.

Does not fit with the last part of Matt 23, the next time the Jewish Nation sees Him will be when they say, “blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord”. This does not fit with rapture. It fits with second coming.
------
I believe the gathering of 24:31 fits the gathering of the Jews before the Millenium when they mourn for the One they pierced (Zech 12:10) and when God brings them all back to the promised land (Deut 30:1-10). See the parallel passage in Luke 21 also.

I do understand that you apply the gathering to the rapture rather than the second coming to earth from your outline. Give me some reasons from the text for such an application, I could not find any.

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

Come on Ed, loosen up will ya.

The Church did not exist at the time of Mt. 24

It was still a mystery at that time.

The disciples could not of associated the Church
with the things in Mt. 24. Ignorance prevailed among the disciples.

The context is Israel and the Jews living in Jerusalem.


Where do you see the Church in 24? I don't see it anywhere.

 

[rjprince]

Oh, forgot to mention that "elect" fits Israel better in this context than it fits NT believers.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Church = assembly of saints, units are # of persons

Church Age = time period during which gentiles
can be saved, units are years

Try to keep the two straight. Thank you.

Rjprince: "So, you just read the Bible? You do not ready
any conservative Bible believing, Bible teaching theologians
and you did not go to any Bible College, Seminary, etc?"

I'm an engineer. I support 1/6th of a pastor with my tithes.

Did you catch i think Matthew 24:30 is the Second Coming
at the end of the week AND Matthew 24:31 is
the rapture/resurrection/gathering?

 

[rjprince]

Pretty sure I found 63 kais in Matt 24. Not sure which one you mean? Did not see Granville Sharp anywhere, I looked. Could you please be more specific?

Oh, and regarding a sign preceding the “end of the age”, how can the abomination of desolation in the midst of the 70th week not be a sign clearly given in the OD? Another reason that the “gathering” cannot be the rapture.

Luke 21 clearly puts the end of the “times of the gentiles” before the “coming of the son of man” and the “redemption” (I read gathering, return, New Covenant, etc) of Israel (see 21:24,27-28).

 

[rjprince]

Sorry, did not catch your distinction between 2nd coming and rapture in 24:30-32. I have a problem with reading too fast sometimes.

Having looked at it, still does not think it fits. Way out of sequence. Not only that, "from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt 24:31) sure fits well with "If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee" (Deut 30:4).

Just cannot get rapture out of that.... IMHO

 

[prophecynut]

rjprince

Here's OT Scriptures supporting the "elect" as Jews. Would like ED to look these up.

Deu. 30:1-11
Mic. 2:12
Amos 9:14-15
Hos. 9:10
Isa. 43:5-7; 49:22; 66:20
Jer. 23:3; 31:8
Eze. 36:24-27

 

[rjprince]

And, for an engineer who has not done Bible College and Seminary, I would say that you have an incredible grasp of the Word of God and you ought to be teaching in your church in some capacity!

The fact that I disagree with you on this not withstanding! Oh, sorry about the Granville-Sharp thing. If you have not have at least 2nd year Greek grammar you may not know what that is. I assumed, based on your grasp and ability to communicate the word that you had some seminary. That you don't will gain you much more respect IMHO!